[Mainline] Proposals regarding red mage & javelineer.

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Lyulf
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Joined: September 18th, 2014, 7:15 am

[Mainline] Proposals regarding red mage & javelineer.

Post by Lyulf »

The red mage line, excluding the silver mage, seems uncompetitive with other mages in the same tree (there are far more situations when the healing powers of the white mage or the teleport of the silver mage are helpful than there are where the slightly better attack of the red mage makes him the best option) , and the great mage seems to be inferior to other t4 magicians. Furthermore, the resistance the line has to fire never really comes into play, as they can only attack with fire, and every unit with a fire attack has fire resistance, meaning that fire resistance prolongs battles without handing either side any actual advantage. I propose that the line be given a "magic arrow" attack, dealing piercing damage at range, though not so much as to ever outdo an archer of the same level. This, combined with the elemental resistances of the line, would give them a useful niche tanking fire attacks and doing meaningful damage in return. The advantage it gives them over other mages in battle also makes a certain amount of lore sense. While other mages were learning to heal/teleport/raise the dead/prance around in the forest being an elf (for shame!), the red mage was learning battlemagic by dueling other mages.

If anyone was interested in designing a t3 javelineer, but at a loss for a name or a niche, here are a few thoughts I may as well put forward. "Peltast" might make a good name. Peltasts were greek javelineers who used large sheilds (pelte) to close with the enemy before throwing their javelins, allowing them to get within effective range of archers and slingers without being killed. Thus, a peltast troop with relatively high piercing and blunt resistance might stand out a little compared to other troops designed to be decent-not-great at all ranges.

With apologies for my presumption,
Lyulf
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ChaosRider
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Re: [Mainline] Proposals regarding red mage & javelineer.

Post by ChaosRider »

Lets start of this that javelineer has already 3 lvl form in addon Modified World Conquest (MWC Part 2 is required to play it, for units images).

Next one is that you want give great mage a pierce ranged weapon only because he isnt good in battle vs drakes which have some plus res for fire and minus res for pierce...
Great mage is enought powerfull vs other races which mostly have 0 or minus res for fire (ghosts and dwarves have 10%).
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firefox
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Re: [Mainline] Proposals regarding red mage & javelineer.

Post by firefox »

there are far more situations when the healing powers of the white mage or the teleport of the silver mage are helpful than there are where the slightly better attack of the red mage makes him the best option
:eng: The red/arch mages also have more hp than white/silver mages. Only the Dark Adept line has more hp, but has weaker attack power instead. So the Archmage is best suited for battle.
True, in a battle between mages, the Silver Mage always wins because of his resistances,
but aggainst normal enemies the Archmage has better chances.
He can deal 12 points more damage than the silver mage, this can be the difference between life and death.
The Silver Mage can easily flee from battle with his Teleport ability and he must use it, because he can't fight for long.
He is a support unit, that quickly moves around the map to help here and there.
The Arch mage is just like the low level mages, he travels with the main army and blasts enemies in fortified positions.

:whistle: I also thought of a situation where he is clearly the better choice over the white mage:

In a Loyalist vs Rebels match, the loyalists would of course choose the White Mage,
because he is a healer and arcane magic is effective aggainst elves.
But for the Rebels the White Mage has nothing to offer. The Druid is a better healer because she can slow enemies and moves well in the forests like all other elves.
And Humans are resistant to arcane damage, so the powerful elvish sorceress is also ineffective.
The Red Mage resists the arcane attacks of the White Mage and his fire resistance helps him aggainst low level mages.
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Elvish_Hunter
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Re: [Mainline] Proposals regarding red mage & javelineer.

Post by Elvish_Hunter »

Lyulf wrote:The red mage line, excluding the silver mage, seems uncompetitive with other mages in the same tree
And here there's the problem: usually, you don't fight an army with your mage alone. You fight an army with your army. It's up to you to be careful, use your Red Magi against units that have a weak fire resistance and a weak or no ranged attack. If you decide to send a Great Mage against a bunch of Drakes (just to say), well... that's a surefire recipe for disaster. :P It's much better to attack enemy Magi with melee units, like Spearmen, Elvish Fighters, Dwarvish Fighters...
Lyulf wrote:If anyone was interested in designing a t3 javelineer, but at a loss for a name or a niche, here are a few thoughts I may as well put forward. "Peltast" might make a good name. Peltasts were greek javelineers who used large sheilds (pelte) to close with the enemy before throwing their javelins, allowing them to get within effective range of archers and slingers without being killed. Thus, a peltast troop with relatively high piercing and blunt resistance might stand out a little compared to other troops designed to be decent-not-great at all ranges.
I guess not for mainline, as it'll be a direct violation of FPI #4. However, that didn't stop adding units like the Master at Arms, or the L3 Outlaws, that in the 1.0 version weren't available.
But there is a direct issue with this idea: in the same advancement tree, we have the Pikeman. The Pikeman, compared to the Javelineer, has more HP, a stronger melee attack, can advance to L3, but it lacks the ranged attack. If we add a L3 Peltast with increased ranged attack, increased resistance, and perhaps first strike ability on ranged, I suppose that almost nobody will choose the Pikeman any more, and instead everyone will go for the Javelineer advancement.
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