Violation of RiPLiB

[Null]

While playing a survival game last night, I noticed something that seems rather strange when my Merman Warrior leveled up.

The Merman Warrior, level 2, does 'melee: 8 - 4' damage for a total of 32.
The Merman Hoplite, a level 3 variant of the Warrior, does 'melee: 15 - 2' for a total of 30.

Shouldn't this be changed? While the Hoplite does have some significant resistences and steadfast, I it shouldn't do less damage, which seems to violate RiPLiB. Considering this unit is rarely used in campaigns or multiplayer, would it be too much of a stretch to get this changed? I can't see, for instance, a 16 - 2 attack creating any kind of imbalance.

[thespaceinvader]

The Merman Triton satisfies the no RIPLIB rules - they state only that ONE possible level up must have no reduction in power, not that all must - the Hoplite's power loss is accounted for by its gaining Steadfast,

[Null]

But still, I can't imagine anyone who would prefer the Hoplite over the Triton which does 12 more damage, has 8 more health points, and another move point, especially when mermen are used so little.

But my main point is, why should its attack become worse?

EDIT: I just noticed, the Triton doesn't gain a move point, the Hoplite loses one.

[thespaceinvader]

The individual strikes are more powerful, and steadfast is a VERY useful defensive ability - it makes a merman defending on land a more viable prospect, which is very useful in certain campaigns. Its attack becomes worse because its primary use is in holding the line.

[irrevenant]

Space Invader answered your question. RIPLIB only requires that there is a development branch that is strictly superior to the base unit. The Merman Warrior has such a branch in the Triton.

[Null]

Space Invader answered your question. RIPLIB only requires that there is a development branch that is strictly superior to the base unit. The Merman Warrior has such a branch in the Triton.

I've checked the level ups for the other units, and it seems that the possible advancments for a unit that can choose a branch are always supierior, and none of them seem to ever become worse in any areas. The only exceptions I could find were the Goblin Rouser, which loses it's ranged 3 - 1 attack for leadership, and the Merman Netcaster which has it's ranged attack reduced because it's throwing a net that slows, not a javelin. Both of these trades seem reasonable.

The Merman Hoplite, on the other hand, somehow gets a worse attack than it's predecessor while using almost the same weapon and loses a movepoint for the steadfast ability, which also seems illogical since it has a relitively low HP compared to other level 3 fighter-type units. this seems to significantly deviate from the patterns of other unit branches, where any choice is always supierior.

Also, I can't see the Hoplite being a really viable land option. With only 5 movepoints, it can only move 2 grassland hexes opposed to other water unit's three hexes.

While this unit may not violate RiPLiB, it seems rather underpowered.

[Dave]

I've checked the level ups for the other units, and it seems that the possible advancments for a unit that can choose a branch are always supierior, and none of them seem to ever become worse in any areas.

Also, two of the spearman advancements lose the ranged attack.

The Merman Hoplite, on the other hand, somehow gets a worse attack than it's predecessor while using almost the same weapon and loses a movepoint for the steadfast ability, which also seems illogical since it has a relitively low HP compared to other level 3 fighter-type units. this seems to significantly deviate from the patterns of other unit branches, where any choice is always supierior.

We like deviations from the norm in certain areas.

Anyhow, steadfast is a very powerful abillity, especially for a unit that one only has 30% to hit.

David

[TL]

I've checked the level ups for the other units, and it seems that the possible advancments for a unit that can choose a branch are always supierior, and none of them seem to ever become worse in any areas. The only exceptions I could find were the Goblin Rouser, which loses it's ranged 3 - 1 attack for leadership, and the Merman Netcaster which has it's ranged attack reduced because it's throwing a net that slows, not a javelin. Both of these trades seem reasonable.

You're not looking very hard, then. Consider that practically every time one of a unit's attack type changes on levelup that they potentially become worse against certain opponents. Yes, most units that suffer from RIPLIB on minor counts like this are still much more powerful overall, but the point of RIPLIB is specifically that all units should have at least one advancement that is superior in every situation (statistics directly based on level--upkeep cost and XP given to enemies in combat--are given a blanket exception, as are units that have less potential damage than their predecessors due to loss of bonuses they might get from leadership units). There is no RIPLIB problem with the Merman Warrior's advancement; your argument is only that the hoplite is too weak.

To each their own, I suppose. I prefer hoplites; having 40-50% defensive resistances against everything but arcane is not a bonus to be dismissed lightly.

[Null]

Also, two of the spearman advancements lose the ranged attack.

Missed that one, thanks.

...especially for a unit that one only has 30% to hit.

You mean 40%, right?

Consider that practically every time one of a unit's attack type changes on levelup that they potentially become worse against certain opponents.

Certain opponents? Wouldn't less damage be worse against Every opponent?

Yes, most units that suffer from RIPLIB on minor counts like this are still much more powerful overall, but the point of RIPLIB is...

While this unit may not violate RiPLiB, it seems rather underpowered.

I already admitted that saying this violates RiPLiB is a mistake, we're talking about the unit itself here.

To each their own, I suppose. I prefer hoplites; having 40-50% defensive resistances against everything but arcane is not a bonus to be dismissed lightly.

Considering that everyone seems to be telling me this, I'll assume that I'm not valuing the steadfast ability enough, and that this unit is probably better than I think it is.

But I still believe it should have a 16-2 attack at least

Unless if anyone wants to continue the duscussion on weather or not this unit is possibly underpowered, this can be locked.

[TruePurple]

The individual strikes are more powerful.

Why is that a good thing in any way? That just means less strikes and less chance of killing something closer to death, no? So besides being less danage it gets less strikes which is two disadvantages with weapon plus loss of movement.

No comment on the rest.

[JW]

The individual strikes are more powerful.

Why is that a good thing in any way? That just means less strikes and less chance of killing something closer to death, no?

Here is an education:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 960#173960

[Thrawn]

Why is that a good thing in any way? That just means less strikes and less chance of killing something closer to death, no?

Here is an education:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 960#173960

I was gonna link that...punk.

but yeah, truepurple, your question is answered

[thespaceinvader]

Yeah. A unit with 12 to 15 HP, particularly on good terrain, will be easier to kill with a Hoplite than a Triton or Warrior, both of which would need to land two hits to the Hoplite's one.

[Dave]

Why is that a good thing in any way? That just means less strikes and less chance of killing something closer to death, no?

Here is an education:
http://www.wesnoth.org/forum/viewtopic. ... 960#173960

This is some good analysis. There are additional reasons why fewer strokes, with greater damage with each stroke can be better. The key thing to remember is that the fewer strokes you have, the higher chance of missing altogether, but also a higher chance of doing maximum damage.

Additionally, units with a few powerful strikes get to deal their damage quickly. This means that when they fight an enemy that is close to death, they have a higher chance of killing the enemy before much damage is done to them.

I think that all in all, 3 or 4 strikes is ideal, but there are all sorts of different situations where different numbers of attacks work best. In fact, differences in number of attacks is one of the key things that makes Wesnoth strategizing so complex and interesting.

David

[Noy]

Well people, I think we've conclusively proved that no riplib violation exists in this case. Thank god the original poster didn't actually identify any real riplib violations.

Locked