New ability: submerge

martenzo · Post by **martenzo** » January 11th, 2005, 2:33 pm

The ability is meand for nagas and meremen. Makes them invisible in deep water. It would add a lot more strategy to naval battles, especially to some HttT and TRoW levels.

Post by **Jetrel** » January 11th, 2005, 3:29 pm

It's a neat idea, but we'll need an overhaul of the invisibility code before it will happen.

And somehow, I don't see that happening anytime soon.

It would also be way too powerful; a better, and related idea would be a lesser invisibility in which the unit can only be seen if an enemy is within several spaces. In fact, that would be a better replacement for ambush, too.

SaintDust · Post by **SaintDust** » January 11th, 2005, 3:35 pm

Ambush

the only thing about ambust is the lack of attack from it.

i mean.
i can picture this scenario

A spearmen is walking along a forest path in the dark of night,
whistling as he goes.
He says to himself "Man i am so safe. I don't see anything for like 5 hexs."
As he continues through the night, the sun begins to rise. As it does a giant wose jumps out at him one hex a way.
Startled the spearmen threatens "You want some of me, big mean tree!"
"Nope." the tree replies. I can not attack you till my turn..

Ambush should allow an attack..
I mean your not realy ambushed unless you are attacked.

DoT · Post by **DoT** » January 11th, 2005, 7:54 pm

i'd have to agree.. lol... because ambush only makes it so the enemys movement is stopped... i mean really u have a corpse vs a wose do you think the opponent will attack that wose?
Ambush should make it so the rebels wose has to attack the unit it ambushes...

Disto · Post by **Disto** » January 11th, 2005, 8:02 pm

Maybe, but what if you using a badly wounded ranger which 1 hp to run to a village and someone accidently discovers them, say a scouting bat, what will happen, the ranger will probably die. There should be a choice to leap out and ambush.

DoT · Post by **DoT** » January 11th, 2005, 8:12 pm

alright i'm gonna try to bring this back to subject..

i think submerge will have to wait until there are more water units =).. submerge would be a good ability but i think it would be to much right now.. but this is my opinion..

its a good idea though =D

martenzo · Post by **martenzo** » January 12th, 2005, 5:17 am

DoT wrote:its a good idea though =D

Thanks!
I've thought up some other alternatives for the submerge mode:
1) submerge button makes you visible to units 1 hex away, but they cannot attack you and you can't attack them unless they also submerge.(probably overpovered)
2) submerge is like water ambush (the current one)
3)your idea

comments?

iBrow · Post by **iBrow** » January 12th, 2005, 6:35 am

If there is submerge, I don't think there should be a submerge button. Basically, I think it's an okay idea as ambush, but for deep water instead of forests. That's what I saw it as in your first post. If you're suggesting submerge as something you can either turn on for off, I'd be against adding it (but for that matter, what could be the possible advantage on not submerging?)

Post by **Dragonking** » January 12th, 2005, 2:28 pm

I think idea is very good, but IMO we need more water unit first, and it should be like ambush - without button

martenzo · Post by **martenzo** » January 12th, 2005, 3:00 pm

iBrow wrote:but for that matter, what could be the possible advantage on not submerging?

While submerged: you can only attack submerged units, you can't go into shallow water or land ((un)submerging takes a turn). The advantages of submerging are: you can go under unsubmerged units and their ZoC doesn't apply to you (you still can't pass by submerged units). These were the bonuses and boguses of the button version (i added some with this post too).
Here are some new underwater unit ideas:
Skeletal fish level 1
submerge
bite 4-2 (blade)
hp 15
resistance (same as skeleton)
cost 7
moves 7
castle 1 60%
shallow water 1 80%
deep water 1 70%
village 1 30%
others --
----------------------------
Drake Swimmer level 1
submerge
fangs 6-3 (blade)
water flame 5-4 (fire)
moves 6
resistances
cold 30%
fire 60%
pierce -80%
blade, impact (same as drake warrior)
These specially bred drakes are an experiment by he greatest of drake mages. They are made to live in water, so they are more resistant to cold than other drakes.

aelius · Post by **aelius** » January 12th, 2005, 9:10 pm

martenzo wrote:While submerged: you can only attack submerged units, you can't go into shallow water or land ((un)submerging takes a turn). The advantages of submerging are: you can go under unsubmerged units and their ZoC doesn't apply to you (you still can't pass by submerged units). These were the bonuses and boguses of the button version (i added some with this post too).

I think this violates the KISS principles of Wesnoth. It'd be terribly complicated to represent graphically too.

- b.

iBrow · Post by **iBrow** » January 12th, 2005, 9:19 pm

What you are now suggesting I think it is a bad idea. Also, it seems like the only reason you'd want to use it is if enemies are blocking a water pass, so you submerge your unit, go under, then unsubmerge, taking a total of three turns... it would be a complex ability that was also useless.

Post by **Jetrel** » January 12th, 2005, 9:47 pm

martenzo wrote: Drake Swimmer level 1
submerge
fangs 6-3 (blade)
water flame 5-4 (fire)
moves 6
resistances
cold 30%
fire 60%
pierce -80%
blade, impact (same as drake warrior)
These specially bred drakes are an experiment by he greatest of drake mages. They are made to live in water, so they are more resistant to cold than other drakes.

WATER FLAME?!? WATER FLAME!?!?

what're you gonna come up with next, the Jell-o-bong?

Disto · Post by **Disto** » January 12th, 2005, 9:50 pm

Jetryl wrote:
martenzo wrote: Drake Swimmer level 1
submerge
fangs 6-3 (blade)
water flame 5-4 (fire)
moves 6
resistances
cold 30%
fire 60%
pierce -80%
blade, impact (same as drake warrior)
These specially bred drakes are an experiment by he greatest of drake mages. They are made to live in water, so they are more resistant to cold than other drakes.
WATER FLAME?!? WATER FLAME!?!?

what're you gonna come up with next, the Jell-o-bong?

Well i suppose that is the stupidest thing i've heard on the forums yet... keep it coming people.

Post by **Dragonking** » January 12th, 2005, 10:20 pm

Disto wrote:
Jetryl wrote: WATER FLAME?!? WATER FLAME!?!?

what're you gonna come up with next, the Jell-o-bong?
Well i suppose that is the stupidest thing i've heard on the forums yet... keep it coming people.

I agree.

pierce -80% - with this Drake Swimmer will be slaughtered by mermans/nagas, of course you can give him many hp to compare it but IMO 80% def is not enought with -80% to pierce
Maybe better give drakes Sauren-water unit - something like Sauran Lizard?