kiss training ground - (TSG-AOI) - Heir to the Throne

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kiss
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kiss training ground - (TSG-AOI) - Heir to the Throne

Post by kiss »

Here is where I'll post the best I can do against the campaigns as Soldier (Normal) 1.11.16

I'm not sure to have all needed skills to success, I'll need all your help, comments and support. But, I don't want to become a drone. I want to break through the end by myself, write my own walk through no read an existing one. So, please, help accordingly, I hope you understand my wish.

I'll won't reload, but restart as many time needed.

I've done this kind of exercise in an other life with an other game. No full detailed explanation but rather a specific one on the most obvious lack. It works well.

Of course, all fighter for the same quest is welcome.

Edit It will be for all campaign, not only TSG
Last edited by kiss on October 8th, 2014, 8:52 am, edited 3 times in total.
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

Well, it was not that easy. Less gold than I've used to have. And less units pushes to think differently, especially the fights. At least this was the first lesson for me. Still not perfect, but I'm here to learn.

I've fond a pretty good way to handle the fight whatever the Bandit spams. Here are two examples:
1_TSG-Born_to_the_Banner_replay.gz
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2_TSG-Born_to_the_Banner_replay.gz
(17.87 KiB) Downloaded 454 times
I'll go on with this one:
Troubles should arise now ...
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

Well. I've had some tries with next scenario. I still don't find a convenient opening, but it gives me an idea of the early turns.
One more time I've remembered leadership, and decide to come back to this one because, if I've used it in the previous replays, it was only random! I must stop forget it ...

Focus is absolutely different for me now. Before, it was discovering, and any save/reload stops the process! Now, it's more technical oriented and restart isn't a problem any more. Each time strengthen skills.
I'm starting to understand what I was told earlier, but at this time I wasn't ready, I'm sorry.
As a beginner I took care of "ALL" units. Fight was so difficult to control that kills were spread all around and any unit became important. I won't get back, but I'm sure my replays are full of silly recall!
I get it now, I will roll the dice more often!
As a consequence: less informations in my notes!
(for those hear "at least he understood" in their mind ... thank you very much).
I've still kept track of %, but even if it can changes something locally, it can't overcome the final result. I let it aside from now.
Here are some results.:
The last one is somehow special and quite rare. I've restarted a lot to get it. For me it is the most difficult case to handle and the result is poorer and should provide an harder campaign to play.
This arise, when there is a lot of footpad, they are so fast that it is much more difficult to protect the river bank. Thus, you have to take damages with your loyal and it is difficult to recover. And if you let some access north bank it's worst!
I have to replay a lot of time. Of course I loose some, I'm still new to such a level and sometime fail, I also drop a lot of duplicates. It wasn't for the best possible result but to be sure I can master each situation. It is not exactly the same thing.

Each time I promote Peasant to Bowman, I find it more flexible. No idea if it's the best choice for now?

When I start this thread I had no particular idea where it leads. I hope I'll be able to play the whole campaign, in one shot, whatever the spawned units, and provide an efficient template of my notes.

Well, no comments?

I'll continue with the second one.

Edit to add work in progress

Still in progress with second scenario. Flexibility is needed even more and a good line is difficult to find, but a two step fight start appearing. Each time I try something else is a fail.

Also, I've reformatted my note sheet. The kill's count wasn't relevant and difficult to obtain. I've switched to experience points. I've also dropped duplicate informations.

For now, here are two results.
I don't provide the replay file because I'm still under research and reload a lot.

Starting gold+(carried over): 85+(102)=187/40/100.
Finish: turn 16/28, bonus gold 185.
Recruit: 1 Peasant, 10 Bowman/Spearman.

XP tracking: total 97/88 --> 303/264, scenario 206/176.
Sir Gerrick (lvl 2): Infantry Lieutenant (5/75)70 --> (14/75)+9.
+Minister Hylas (lvl 2): White Mage (0/109)109 --> (9/109)+9.
Deoran (lvl 1): Junior Commander (36/45)9 --> Horseman Commander (43/80)+52.
Myssh (lvl 1): Merman Fighter (9/29)20 --> Merman Warrior (8/64)+28.
Ylla (lvl 1): Merman Hunter (24/35)11 --> Merman Netcaster (24/80)+35.
Moreth (lvl 1)+23: Bowman (3/39)36 --> (31/39)+28.
+Ufes (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> (9/23)+9.
+Joran (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> (5/23)+5.
+Makees (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> Spearman (4/42)+27.
+Tyborg (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> R.I.P.
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Starting gold+(carried over): 85+(102)=187/40/100.
Finish: turn 20/28, bonus gold 138.
Recruit: 1 Peasant, 13 Bowman/Spearman.

XP tracking: total 97/88 --> 312/288, scenario 205/200.
Sir Gerrick (lvl 2): Infantry Lieutenant (5/75)70 --> (13/75)+8.
+Minister Hylas (lvl 2): White Mage (0/109)109 --> (9/109)+9.
Deoran (lvl 1): Junior Commander (36/45)9 --> Horseman Commander (9/80)+18.
Myssh (lvl 1): Merman Fighter (9/29)20 --> (27/29)+20.
Ylla (lvl 1): Merman Hunter (24/35)11 --> Merman Netcaster (21/80)+31.
Moreth (lvl 1)+23: Bowman (3/39)36 --> Longbowman (16/68)+52.
+Ufes (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> (8/23)+8.
+Joran (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> Bowman (18/39)+41.
+Makees (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> R.I.P.
+Tyborg (lvl 0): Peasant (0/23)23 --> (18/23)+18.
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

@ adilmalik I don't understand, what are you talking about?

Proven by the Sword - Soldier (Normal) 1.11.16.

I've had a lot of false good ideas for this one and it takes time to explore and find the way through.
Timing is important, be too fast or too slow and it's a disaster. I've found a pattern that seems ok. .
Here are 3 examples:
I'll go on with the last one.

Edit to add the next one.

A Desparate Errand - Soldier (Normal) 1.11.16.

This one is a kind of pitfall! It seems easy, but there is many way to lose something. It is a good opportunity to advance some units.
Nearly the same result for these two examples:
I'll go on with the last.
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

Vale of Tears - Soldier (Normal) 1.11.16.

Too slow, too slow!
This was the result of my first tries. I've used heroes only and it was huge defeat, worse, it seemed impossible to win. Cry, cry, poor hero!
Other time loss is that false hero that I've usually forgot!
Then comes a natural way, and it works.
Here are two results:
I'll keep the last one.
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max_torch
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by max_torch »

I would suggest that you try both end branches of the campaign (bandit and elf path) because all of the scenarios are cool.
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

Yes max_torch, I'll do both.

For now I've chosen the elves and used troops accordingly. I don't think this one needs a lot of examples. I've done pretty the same thing and win many time ... but I've used reload because of heavy errors!
I reload one time at the end of this one because I've forgotten Soulless fight! Not a big deal.
Here it is:
I'll try to finish the campaign from there. I think that if I can't find any way, I'll have to come back earlier and build my army differently.

Edit to add the next one.
Well, as soon as I post the previous message I realize my mistake!
Never mind, here is the result:
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

Well, I'm stuck!
I've played untill the end but something is wrong.

With Tidings Good and Ill difficulties arise. I've survived but with the help of Elvish Fighters and Druid. In the next one it was worse. No hero is tailored to do the job and most of them can't open the Eyetalk door!
I've trie Horses, not better. The best I've tried is Elvish Fighter, but it takes time to move 10 level 1 in the cave and without Troll's help I've ran out of turns. Later on, elves again seems the best choice in Vengeance.

While playing I follow as I can the best way. I mean a way that works everytime. This leads me to feed loyal to save gold. I mostly feed my Bowman, it seems to be a mess ... and the start of an interesting research.
Even my Master Bowman is too weak against the Eyetalk, what can beat it? I've already found Elvish Fighter, but it was too slow and painfull, so what? Advanced version of this unit? Marshal or Champion. The only other possible choice is from Spearman. Perhaps also horses, I don't try.
I wanted to know and used debug mode. The result was succesfull, 2 units can kill the Eyetalk. I've not gone further, but with some support it should be possible to progress faster in the cave and let the trolls in their home!
This was against all I've done to get there. Discovering that the easiest way to kill a melee unit was with melee attack changes a lot of things for me!

As I want to understand, I've read the whole development thread. I was looking for something about the whole campaign building process, but I've found nothing. Hopefully, I've found a clue: Moreth. I've forgoten what it was in the easiest mode and this strenghten my thought.

Why is Moreth loyal-resilient? Why not an other trait than resilient?
I wonder what is the value of a choosen unit with two traits against loyal+one?
More generaly.
Should we use loyal to protect and advance chosen unit?
Should we feed melee unit when it is easy to kill with ranged attack?
Of course this is counter intuitive, but wasn't this game full of surprises? All I've done so far is exactly the contrary!

I've planned to play the whole campaign from scratch and discover how useful are my templates. It's time.
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max_torch
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by max_torch »

kiss wrote:Well, I'm stuck!
I've played untill the end but something is wrong.

With Tidings Good and Ill difficulties arise. I've survived but with the help of Elvish Fighters and Druid. In the next one it was worse. No hero is tailored to do the job and most of them can't open the Eyetalk door!
I've trie Horses, not better. The best I've tried is Elvish Fighter, but it takes time to move 10 level 1 in the cave and without Troll's help I've ran out of turns. Later on, elves again seems the best choice in Vengeance.

While playing I follow as I can the best way. I mean a way that works everytime. This leads me to feed loyal to save gold. I mostly feed my Bowman, it seems to be a mess ... and the start of an interesting research.
Even my Master Bowman is too weak against the Eyetalk, what can beat it? I've already found Elvish Fighter, but it was too slow and painfull, so what? Advanced version of this unit? Marshal or Champion. The only other possible choice is from Spearman. Perhaps also horses, I don't try.
I wanted to know and used debug mode. The result was succesfull, 2 units can kill the Eyetalk. I've not gone further, but with some support it should be possible to progress faster in the cave and let the trolls in their home!
This was against all I've done to get there. Discovering that the easiest way to kill a melee unit was with melee attack changes a lot of things for me!

As I want to understand, I've read the whole development thread. I was looking for something about the whole campaign building process, but I've found nothing. Hopefully, I've found a clue: Moreth. I've forgoten what it was in the easiest mode and this strenghten my thought.

Why is Moreth loyal-resilient? Why not an other trait than resilient?
I wonder what is the value of a choosen unit with two traits against loyal+one?
More generaly.
Should we use loyal to protect and advance chosen unit?
Should we feed melee unit when it is easy to kill with ranged attack?
Of course this is counter intuitive, but wasn't this game full of surprises? All I've done so far is exactly the contrary!

I've planned to play the whole campaign from scratch and discover how useful are my templates. It's time.
I looked again at my replay of Into the Depths. Notice that the eyestalk has -20% against blade and fire. Also notice that it is like a perpetual night when inside a cave which affects negatively lawful units. Use a unit that has blade damage, and back that unit up with leadership from Deoran, and if you have a mage of light, back it up with the Illuminate from the mage of light as well. You have to remember that Mages of light are extremely useful for cave levels. If you have a red mage, he will also do quite some damage to the eyestalk because he is neutral so he will not be affected by the cave and his attack will be fire. Here is the replay in the latest stable version:
TSG-Into_the_Depths_replay.gz
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kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

max_torch wrote: I looked again at my replay of Into the Depths. Notice that the eyestalk has -20% against blade and fire. Also notice that it is like a perpetual night when inside a cave which affects negatively lawful units. Use a unit that has blade damage, and back that unit up with leadership from Deoran, and if you have a mage of light, back it up with the Illuminate from the mage of light as well. You have to remember that Mages of light are extremely useful for cave levels. If you have a red mage, he will also do quite some damage to the eyestalk because he is neutral so he will not be affected by the cave and his attack will be fire. Here is the replay in the latest stable version:
TSG-Into_the_Depths_replay.gz
My bad! Really, I don't understand ! Maybe too tired?
I've done it again, with the same team and not any problem! Eyetalk falls at the first round. Without troll help I kill the boss turn 35 ... with 2 Master, 1 Pikemen, 2 Bodyguard and 1 Longbowmen.
Really, I'm confused!

Whatever, it is the end after that, I'll restart from the beginning as planned, I'll also investigate the other branch from there.

I have to say that giving less weight to loyal is enjoyable and ease the gameplay. It also imply a choice for each unit, keep it or not? I have to understand this.
TSG is said to be the easiest campaign, its design shouldn't stress gold level, it worth a try anyway.
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

Well, I've restart from scratch and it looks like I was playing an other game!

I've faced situations I've had never seen in the first three scenarios, my templates are useless ...
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max_torch
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by max_torch »

kiss wrote:
max_torch wrote: I looked again at my replay of Into the Depths. Notice that the eyestalk has -20% against blade and fire. Also notice that it is like a perpetual night when inside a cave which affects negatively lawful units. Use a unit that has blade damage, and back that unit up with leadership from Deoran, and if you have a mage of light, back it up with the Illuminate from the mage of light as well. You have to remember that Mages of light are extremely useful for cave levels. If you have a red mage, he will also do quite some damage to the eyestalk because he is neutral so he will not be affected by the cave and his attack will be fire. Here is the replay in the latest stable version:
TSG-Into_the_Depths_replay.gz
My bad! Really, I don't understand ! Maybe too tired?
I've done it again, with the same team and not any problem! Eyetalk falls at the first round. Without troll help I kill the boss turn 35 ... with 2 Master, 1 Pikemen, 2 Bodyguard and 1 Longbowmen.
Really, I'm confused!

Whatever, it is the end after that, I'll restart from the beginning as planned, I'll also investigate the other branch from there.

I have to say that giving less weight to loyal is enjoyable and ease the gameplay. It also imply a choice for each unit, keep it or not? I have to understand this.
TSG is said to be the easiest campaign, its design shouldn't stress gold level, it worth a try anyway.
well that's why the replay is there for you to analyze
kiss
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by kiss »

max_torch wrote:well that's why the replay is there for you to analyze
Mine? They're gone away, overwritten by my other tests. And, ho, I've never thought about boosted shaman! Thanks.

I've learned a lot with my previous experiments with TSG, but I'm still not ready, something missing and I still don't know what. From scratch, my first result after last post: Minister Hylas dead in Vale of Tears. Noone can do anything this time, it's my own fault, I've lost Ylla and Jarek before!
Talking about Jarek, do we have something to tag a unit in the map? I try label, no result but on the map. I mean a tag glued on the unit and moving with it.

It's really another world to play a campaign without save reload instead of going forward step by step. Whatever can be said, I'm convinced that advanced players can do that with 80% of the official campaigns. It's the same with randomness in multiplayer games. Some says something is wrong, other it's ok. From my point of view top players win, even with sad random events. Wait I don't pretend being a top player. But at least I should try with each campaign in easy mode.

Only one thing is sure. Let aside loyal reduce my gold of 15. It's not that much on 3 scenario and can be overwhelmed in TSG, but in a long campaign ...

I think I need to find a balance between the two styles.

Edit
Me again with a fashion question. I've got this result beside the shining team:

Bowman i/s 2/31.
Bowman i/r 5/31.
Spearman r/q 11/42.
Spearman q/r 11/42.

Fire Bowmen, keep 1 Spearman?
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beetlenaut
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by beetlenaut »

kiss wrote:I mean a tag glued on the unit and moving with it.
This can't be done by the user, only the campaign designer. It has been requested before, and some developers thought it was a good idea, but nobody has created it yet. There are lots of features like that, but developers the are all volunteers, so they only code what they want.
kiss wrote:I've never thought about boosted shaman!
Boosted shamans include one of the most powerful units in the game: the sylph. Several campaigns can be won by recruiting nothing except shamans because of that.

I never dismiss any units. Even if they don't have experience, you know what traits they have, which can be advantageous. Especially "quick". Maybe that's just me though.
Campaigns: Dead Water,
The Founding of Borstep,
Secrets of the Ancients,
and WML Guide
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Paulomat4
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Re: Training ground - The South Guard

Post by Paulomat4 »

I mean a tag glued on the unit and moving with it.
This can't be done by the user, only the campaign designer. It has been requested before, and some developers thought it was a good idea, but nobody has created it yet. There are lots of features like that, but developers the are all volunteers, so they only code what they want.
I coded this as add-on. I just didn't upload it to 1.11 yet because I wanted to make a greater overhaul.
Just place this folder into your add-on folder and restart wesnoth. That adds a right-klick menu into every campaign. Pm me if you have suggestions about it! :)
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