Q about ranged attacks, and a Q about The Game

[Tad_Carlucci]

You're comparing community developed, open source software with company developed, proprietary software. And confusing the designer of the game with the programming team. BfW started with the vision on one man, too. The difference is whether that vision was taken to a community for further development, or to a company who hired programmers to bring it to market.

BfW is a community-driven game design. If you have an idea, you're free to program it yourself. When you have it working, you just need to get someone with commit rights to put it into the official, base package.

Many changes, however, do not even require finding someone else with commit rights to the base packet. The engine is heavily modifiable. Many (I'd say virtually all) changes a UMC creator might want can be obtained without actually changing the base engine, using Lua, and released as normal UMC. And if you come across something which actually does need a change to the base-line programs, from my experience, you'll find the team quite helpful and willing to work with you (I certainly have).

Is ranged attack one of those changes? I don't know because I haven't looked.

But, is the argument really about whether or not someone can (or should) try a ranged-attack system in their UMC? I don't think so; the actual undercurrent seems to be more that the idea should go directly into the mainline campaigns. If that's the goal, put together a UMC which uses the idea and is so good everyone clamors its inclusion. Or make it so good that someone decides to sit down and improve an existing campaign with it.

Are the mainline campaigns sacrosanct? Certainly not. But they are definitely curated (to use the currently-vogue term), as is the underlying engine. And for good reason.

[taptap]

Look at turn based games with real ranged damage. There is no limitation to damage you can put into a hex and very boring gameplay results (look at recent slitherine titles), it is just schedulling the damage properly. No distant damage is a design choice required if you have any intentions to make a game on KISS principles and one I praise every time I play Wesnoth, it makes Wesnoth more abstract and more of a strategy game despite having cute single units. It also works fine in every era, just take units to represent more than individuals and tiles more than a few meters and suddenly the lack of "range" makes perfect sense. There are indeed great WW2 strategy games without "range" (WiF afaik).

[Celtic_Minstrel]

If you want to create a scenario or campaign with multihex ranged attacks, I think most of the required framework is already in place in Wesnoth; instead of implementing it as a standard attack, you could use a menuitem that appears when right-clicking a siege engine. The only thing still missing for this to work (as far as I know) is a way for WML (or Lua) code to ask the user to select a target hex, and I believe that's on the list of requested features.

[Ravana]

The only thing still missing for this to work (as far as I know) is a way for WML (or Lua) code to ask the user to select a target hex, and I believe that's on the list of requested features.

EoHS does this somehow. But it is indeed high sorcery of Lua.

[Eagle_11]

There is no limitation to damage you can put into a hex and very boring gameplay results (look at recent slitherine titles).

Idk what those new slitherine titles are but all of the classics(Master of Magic,Age of wonders,Homam series,Civilization series,etc...) had the suggested capability to strike another hex at range and this didnt make them any worser.

it is just schedulling the damage properly

Instead here it is just about rotating the taken damage properly, evenly boring.

[Celtic_Minstrel]

The only thing still missing for this to work (as far as I know) is a way for WML (or Lua) code to ask the user to select a target hex, and I believe that's on the list of requested features.

EoHS does this somehow. But it is indeed high sorcery of Lua.

Interesting. What is this EoHS?

[Ravana]

Era of High Sorcery.

[Eagle_11]

The best implementation of this i have seen is an addon named Ranged Attacks Mod on the 1.12 server.
It even has retaliation for attacks at range, with only one flaw:
unit can only strike in a straight line at one of the 6 directions, this probably due to lack of select target hex part in it.
edit: actually, it could have been more configurable, as per weapon instead per unit, and using number value instead unit level.

Ideally this could be with multihex_range=(default: 1,meaning only the adjacent hexes) key that goes into [attack] inside an [unit_type].
Another thing that could be worth considering to implement is multihex_accuracy=(default: none, you can put +-chance to hit% modifier here) that also goes into [attack] and takes effect only if multihex_range= is above 1. It adds/reduces cth by given amount at each hex above 1. This stacks itself as distance gets longer per hex.

[taptap]

Civilisation never was a game I played for interesting battles. And I don't know half the classics you mention, but Wesnoth standing out by its gameplay is good. Wesnoth peculiarities (ranged damage, stacking, randomness) are not lacking features but design choices. In my opinion, they change gameplay to sth. far more abstract than suggested by the individual units and portraits, in fact it resembles war games that feature division / army corps size units more than anything. I appreciate that, and I prefer Wesnoth mechanics over Panzer General (and clones and successors) and Battle Isle (and clones and successors) mechanics, two turn based games feat. "real ranged damage" I used to play a lot.

[ForestDragon]

The best implementation of this i have seen is an addon named Ranged Attacks Mod on the 1.12 server.
It even has retaliation for attacks at range, with only one flaw:
unit can only strike in a straight line at one of the 6 directions, this probably due to lack of select target hex part in it.
edit: actually, it could have been more configurable, as per weapon instead per unit, and using number value instead unit level.

Ideally this could be with multihex_range=(default: 1,meaning only the adjacent hexes) key that goes into [attack] inside an [unit_type].
Another thing that could be worth considering to implement is multihex_accuracy=(default: none, you can put +-chance to hit% modifier here) that also goes into [attack] and takes effect only if multihex_range= is above 1. It adds/reduces cth by given amount at each hex above 1. This stacks itself as distance gets longer per hex.

yeah it would be great idea, maybe a few suggestions of mine related to that if we are having ideas about inplementing such a function, here are possible WML function ideas:
'attack_over_allies' default=yes
'attack_over_enemies' default=no
'retaliation range' the amount of hexes the unit can retaliate from with the multi-hex attack to another multi-hex attack, by default will be equal to 'range='
'[range_cost]' inside an [attack] tag, like movement cost, but for multi-hex attacks (example: if an enemy is behind a mountain/other tall object)

[Tad_Carlucci]

While we're discussing this sort of thing, and not bothering to see if there's a thread, has anyone taken a look at setting the attack movement cost to something smaller than 10,000 moves? I'm wondering if the AI can handle things like move-1 attack-3 move-2 for a total 6MP unit instead of move-1 attack-10000 done.

[Ravana]

While we're discussing this sort of thing, and not bothering to see if there's a thread, has anyone taken a look at setting the attack movement cost to something smaller than 10,000 moves? I'm wondering if the AI can handle things like move-1 attack-3 move-2 for a total 6MP unit instead of move-1 attack-10000 done.

Not sure about with costs, but it can at least a bit handle move attack move.

[Eagle_11]

While we're discussing this sort of thing, and not bothering to see if there's a thread, has anyone taken a look at setting the attack movement cost to something smaller than 10,000 moves? I'm wondering if the AI can handle things like move-1 attack-3 move-2 for a total 6MP unit instead of move-1 attack-10000 done.

There already are weapon specs i have seen that allow to specify how much MP an attack takes when used.

'attack_over_allies' default=yes
'attack_over_enemies' default=no

Im not sure if detecting this is actually possible as an attack happens between attacker and target. what would happen if target hex is not in a direct line ?

[range_cost]

Attacks that take different MP depending on what terrain the target is standing on ? could have limited uses in an setting where attacks dont deplete entire MP upon use.
Or did you mean that it would check the terrain of hex(es) between attacker to target and apply +- MP movecost to attack's base cost. Fe. if an solid wall cant fire through it.
Then it has same questionary as one above and which hex would count for the calculation if there are multiples in addition.

[ForestDragon]

'attack_over_allies' default=yes
'attack_over_enemies' default=no

Im not sure if detecting this is actually possible as an attack happens between attacker and target. what would happen if target hex is not in a direct line ?

then it will search the same way moving a unit does

[range_cost]

1.Attacks that take different MP depending on what terrain the target is standing on ? could have limited uses in an setting where attacks dont deplete entire MP upon use.
2.Or did you mean that it would check the terrain of hex(es) between attacker to target and apply +- MP movecost to attack's base cost. Fe. if an solid wall cant fire through it.
3.Then it has same questionary as one above and which hex would count for the calculation if there are multiples in addition.

1.nope, i meant the second
2.well, it's kinda like this example:
a unit's attack has a range of 5 hexes, if the 2 hexes in between the target have range_cost of 2 and 1 of range_cost 1, then the unit's range will be three hexes
3.the calculation is equal to that of movement cost

[Gnome42]

Thanks for the replies. Sorry for not responding, been away on holidays. Seems like this is a hot topic ^^