Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
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Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
I asked a simliar question in another thread but...Turuk wrote:You have to take into account the fact that the data is only accumulated from users who decide to send their information to the website. Also, I suppose it does not factor in those who debug the game? I am not sure why the gold is that high on easy difficulty.
Is this data upload thing only happening in the 1.5 branch or also in the 1.4 branch? I am using 1.4.7 and actually have an "upload"-folder in my userdata directory. If the upload is also happening in 1.4, where can I decide not to upload this data? On a quick search in the game I couldn't find a checkbox for that. However, I might be blind.
Split from Unified Difficulty Grading. -Turuk
ThanatoNoth | Necromanteion | Undead Rights Protection Society
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
Re: Unified difficulty grading
Thanatos, on the main screen, you will see the envelope box in the lower right corner. Click on it, and then click on the checkbox that says enable summary uploads to disable it.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
Re: Unified difficulty grading
Preventing the game from uploading is hard, you have to force yourself not to enable the upload which is disabled by default in 1.4.x 
Click onto the little button in the bottom right corner to check/change your settings.
Click onto the little button in the bottom right corner to check/change your settings.
~ I'll heal you by 4 hp if you post next to me ~
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
Re: Unified difficulty grading
Yes some of the data is obviously wrong, and some additional data would probably be needed (like number of units recruited and number of surviving units).
Maybe we can talk abut how to get more and better data collected from the coming 1.6 release and then try to implement a grading system in the coming 1.7 development release?
Maybe we can talk abut how to get more and better data collected from the coming 1.6 release and then try to implement a grading system in the coming 1.7 development release?
Re: Unified difficulty grading
Merci beaucoup. To both of you.
Nicely hidden. Always thought that was something else.
Again, something learned about my favourite game.
And btw: True, in 1.4 it's disabled, but in another thread I read in 1.5 the feature is enabled by default. (Or is this only for the time being in development?)
Nicely hidden. Always thought that was something else.
Again, something learned about my favourite game.
And btw: True, in 1.4 it's disabled, but in another thread I read in 1.5 the feature is enabled by default. (Or is this only for the time being in development?)
ThanatoNoth | Necromanteion | Undead Rights Protection Society
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
Re: Unified difficulty grading
I think the enabled it by default, since
- It is no personal data
- It doesn't cause hight traffic
~ I'll heal you by 4 hp if you post next to me ~
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
Re: Unified difficulty grading
In a way, I disagree.Lizard wrote:I think the enabled it by default, since
- It is no personal data
However, this will lead too far from the idea proposed in this thread.
ThanatoNoth | Necromanteion | Undead Rights Protection Society
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
This was split so that we do not hijack his thread too much. Thanatos, feel free to continue now as you please.
Mainline Maintainer: AOI, DM, NR, TB and THoT.
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
UMC Maintainer: Forward They Cried, A Few Logs, A Few More Logs, Start of the War, and Battle Against Time
Re: Unified difficulty grading
Well, but the upload of the data is at least anonym.Thanatos wrote:In a way, I disagree.Lizard wrote:I think the enabled it by default, since
- It is no personal data
However, this will lead too far from the idea proposed in this thread.
Sure the Wesnoth developers could compare the IPs with the forum logins ...~ I'll heal you by 4 hp if you post next to me ~
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
Have a look at the Era of Strife, featuring Eltireans, Eventide, Minotaurs, Saurians and Triththa
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
Thanks, Turuk.
On (the new) topic:
No upload is anonym. Never. This a common misinterpretation.
The only question is: How hard is it to combine different data-sets to compile a bigger picture? Fact is: In the Wesnoth community it would be quiet easy for some people to correlate data (MP server, Add-On server, forums, client data, ...?) - if they would want to.
Don't get me wrong here: I do not accuse the Wesnoth devs of anything like data-spying or such. I can perfectly see, why this data is needed and what it is used for. I am talking about data-safety principles here and about informational self-determination. That is something often forgotten or non-valued.
However: What I play, and when, and to which extend, and if I cheat or not in playing campaigns (there is no other explanation for me for some data in the stats) and so on... This is my personal information and noones else's business, unless I actively state that I want to give away this information freely and voluntarily.
Thus I have no problem whatsoever in Wesnoth being capable of sending data "back home", but I actually DO have a problem with programs doing so by default, taking the user's acceptance for granted. A nice pop-up window during first start, asking kindly for information and pointing to the location, where I can change my mind, is the easiest way to circumvent this problem.
My proposal: I would strongly recommend to change the default setting of sending data back home to "no" again. Who is willing to help in improving Wesnoth can still check the "send data" box. All others shouldn't be bothered.
On (the new) topic:
No upload is anonym. Never. This a common misinterpretation.
The only question is: How hard is it to combine different data-sets to compile a bigger picture? Fact is: In the Wesnoth community it would be quiet easy for some people to correlate data (MP server, Add-On server, forums, client data, ...?) - if they would want to.
Don't get me wrong here: I do not accuse the Wesnoth devs of anything like data-spying or such. I can perfectly see, why this data is needed and what it is used for. I am talking about data-safety principles here and about informational self-determination. That is something often forgotten or non-valued.
However: What I play, and when, and to which extend, and if I cheat or not in playing campaigns (there is no other explanation for me for some data in the stats) and so on... This is my personal information and noones else's business, unless I actively state that I want to give away this information freely and voluntarily.
Thus I have no problem whatsoever in Wesnoth being capable of sending data "back home", but I actually DO have a problem with programs doing so by default, taking the user's acceptance for granted. A nice pop-up window during first start, asking kindly for information and pointing to the location, where I can change my mind, is the easiest way to circumvent this problem.
My proposal: I would strongly recommend to change the default setting of sending data back home to "no" again. Who is willing to help in improving Wesnoth can still check the "send data" box. All others shouldn't be bothered.
ThanatoNoth | Necromanteion | Undead Rights Protection Society
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
FYI, by default, Wesnoth sends data. I suspect that very few people would not want to send their data. We certainly don't use it for any malevolent purposes.
The tip of the day will always display this the first time a user starts Wesnoth, explaining to them that their data is being sent and explaining to them how to disable it if they prefer.
David
The tip of the day will always display this the first time a user starts Wesnoth, explaining to them that their data is being sent and explaining to them how to disable it if they prefer.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
That's at least something.Dave wrote:The tip of the day will always display this the first time a user starts Wesnoth, explaining to them that their data is being sent and explaining to them how to disable it if they prefer.
(Now I just have to read the tips more carefully next time, when I reinstall the game.
)ThanatoNoth | Necromanteion | Undead Rights Protection Society
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
i strongly want to second what thanatos said in his long post. i think it is really a step into a bad direction to assume that everybody should share their data by default. we live in a time in which data privacy is a very sensitive topic, publishing private data, trading it and the heavily cited transparent citizen are perilous tendencies. the general mindset that personal data isn't that impotant to protect and that sharing it is the rule not the exception, leaves me shuddering. and i think that wesnoth as an open source project which isn't subject to commerical rules and in a certain sense part of a countermovement, shouldn't share this kind of mindset or practise.
i find it deeply dislikable to act on the assumption that everybody is on default ok with sharing their data (as impersonal as they may seem in our case). and it has nothing to do with the question if you want to use it for malevolent or benevolent purposes. i want to be asked and would feel really queasy with the new setting, regardless if i had the option to turn it off. meh.
i find it deeply dislikable to act on the assumption that everybody is on default ok with sharing their data (as impersonal as they may seem in our case). and it has nothing to do with the question if you want to use it for malevolent or benevolent purposes. i want to be asked and would feel really queasy with the new setting, regardless if i had the option to turn it off. meh.
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
The thing is this:
(1) If you go to http://www.wesnoth.org (or to forum.wesnoth.org for that matter) your web browser will be told to send a set of data (where you're from, your browser, OS, what website you came from, etc...) to Google who will store and aggregate it so we can view it to see who came to visit Wesnoth's website and monitor various statistics. This approach is very common place, and many many sites use it including slashdot.org and linux.com.
This is not asked for. The only way to turn it off is to play with complex browser settings that most people aren't aware of. Almost all browsers comply with doing this, including Open Source browsers such as Firefox.
(2) If you open Wesnoth, the first time a message will be displayed explaining that some data will be sent to Wesnoth's web server, and it will be explained how you can easily turn it off. This data actually has the intent of being directly useful to you. I am intending to add options so you can compare how you're doing with the average of all players, you can also view your personalized statistics. As such it can be considered a game feature, not simply "data collection". I'm hoping to eventually have some kind of "how am I doing?" feature in the middle of a campaign that could analyze whether you have a reasonable chance of completing the campaign, based on how well or poorly others have done from similar positions to what you're in.
---
Considering how commonplace (1) is, I don't see how (2) is very vile at all. I also think that if we ask people about it, it will be difficult to word the message in a clear way that is understood by everyone. Also, I think that most users won't really care at all, and will feel irritated at being asked. I think that users who do care will tend to see the message that is clearly displayed when they start Wesnoth up.
If people feel sufficiently strongly about this, and/or have sufficiently compelling arguments, I may reconsider how we approach this. However do note very carefully condition (1) above, and remember just how commonplace it is, and that Open Source browsers such as Firefox comply with it.
David
(1) If you go to http://www.wesnoth.org (or to forum.wesnoth.org for that matter) your web browser will be told to send a set of data (where you're from, your browser, OS, what website you came from, etc...) to Google who will store and aggregate it so we can view it to see who came to visit Wesnoth's website and monitor various statistics. This approach is very common place, and many many sites use it including slashdot.org and linux.com.
This is not asked for. The only way to turn it off is to play with complex browser settings that most people aren't aware of. Almost all browsers comply with doing this, including Open Source browsers such as Firefox.
(2) If you open Wesnoth, the first time a message will be displayed explaining that some data will be sent to Wesnoth's web server, and it will be explained how you can easily turn it off. This data actually has the intent of being directly useful to you. I am intending to add options so you can compare how you're doing with the average of all players, you can also view your personalized statistics. As such it can be considered a game feature, not simply "data collection". I'm hoping to eventually have some kind of "how am I doing?" feature in the middle of a campaign that could analyze whether you have a reasonable chance of completing the campaign, based on how well or poorly others have done from similar positions to what you're in.
---
Considering how commonplace (1) is, I don't see how (2) is very vile at all. I also think that if we ask people about it, it will be difficult to word the message in a clear way that is understood by everyone. Also, I think that most users won't really care at all, and will feel irritated at being asked. I think that users who do care will tend to see the message that is clearly displayed when they start Wesnoth up.
If people feel sufficiently strongly about this, and/or have sufficiently compelling arguments, I may reconsider how we approach this. However do note very carefully condition (1) above, and remember just how commonplace it is, and that Open Source browsers such as Firefox comply with it.
David
“At Gambling, the deadly sin is to mistake bad play for bad luck.” -- Ian Fleming
Re: Summary Uploads in 1.4 and 1.5
Actually, Dave, this is a very dangerous way of thinking, which I wouldn't have expected.
For one:
As commonplace data collection on websites may be, as wrong is it. No matter who uses it.
There is no technical need to store anything about a client but the connection address to send the requested data to (well, maybe the web language standards the browser supports). At least not in default settings. For additional services like geotracking or others the user should be asked to submit additional information, if he wants to. If someone really wants to participate in any data mining, it's his choice. But I didn't make such a choice.
If there ever will be an easy way to step out of this data collection, I will definately use it.
By now, I am honest, I am too lazy to care about the behaviour of my browser.
For two:
Useful or not, it's actually not your (or any other software developers) authority to make decisions for me that are not really needed to be done. Wesnoth works perfectly fine as a product without that information being sent. The new features you are talking about are something like add-ons for me, which could be used, if wanted, but also ignored or turned off. (Personally I wouldn't use those features. Maybe for the same reason I am no member of the Wesnoth ladder: I do not care how good or bad I am in comparison to others.)
I really do not see, why I should support some feature that is only used by others, with my personal data. Sure, you will now tell me, that I can switch it off, but exactly there is the point: Why should I have to do so? Why shouldn't the onse that actually use these features turn the sending on?
Again, don't get me wrong here: I am not, repeat: NOT, against sharing data in general. And I know that for some services you are needed to give data to other people. I am even not paranoic enough, to actually keep my board profile as clear as most of the users here, and so on. The point is: I want to be asked and I want to be in control of when and which data I deliver to whom.
It's really annoying that in front of European and German courts companies get obliged to set all data relevant checkboxes in contracts to "no" as default, while in Wesnoth it's going right into the opposite direction. And to make a last comparison: I am sure that also Microsofts developers only meant the best for me, providing me interesting services for example, when they configured XP so that it called homebase all the time... I killed those calls as soon there was a software for it available.
And honestly: Why should Wesnoth do the wrong thing everyone does? Why can't it do the right thing for the right reasons?
For one:
As commonplace data collection on websites may be, as wrong is it. No matter who uses it.
There is no technical need to store anything about a client but the connection address to send the requested data to (well, maybe the web language standards the browser supports). At least not in default settings. For additional services like geotracking or others the user should be asked to submit additional information, if he wants to. If someone really wants to participate in any data mining, it's his choice. But I didn't make such a choice.
If there ever will be an easy way to step out of this data collection, I will definately use it.
By now, I am honest, I am too lazy to care about the behaviour of my browser.
For two:
Useful or not, it's actually not your (or any other software developers) authority to make decisions for me that are not really needed to be done. Wesnoth works perfectly fine as a product without that information being sent. The new features you are talking about are something like add-ons for me, which could be used, if wanted, but also ignored or turned off. (Personally I wouldn't use those features. Maybe for the same reason I am no member of the Wesnoth ladder: I do not care how good or bad I am in comparison to others.)
I really do not see, why I should support some feature that is only used by others, with my personal data. Sure, you will now tell me, that I can switch it off, but exactly there is the point: Why should I have to do so? Why shouldn't the onse that actually use these features turn the sending on?
Again, don't get me wrong here: I am not, repeat: NOT, against sharing data in general. And I know that for some services you are needed to give data to other people. I am even not paranoic enough, to actually keep my board profile as clear as most of the users here, and so on. The point is: I want to be asked and I want to be in control of when and which data I deliver to whom.
It's really annoying that in front of European and German courts companies get obliged to set all data relevant checkboxes in contracts to "no" as default, while in Wesnoth it's going right into the opposite direction. And to make a last comparison: I am sure that also Microsofts developers only meant the best for me, providing me interesting services for example, when they configured XP so that it called homebase all the time... I killed those calls as soon there was a software for it available.
And honestly: Why should Wesnoth do the wrong thing everyone does? Why can't it do the right thing for the right reasons?
ThanatoNoth | Necromanteion | Undead Rights Protection Society
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")
"The gods can demand nothing of me. Even gods answer to me, eventually. [...] I cannot be bidden, I cannot be forced. I will do only that which I know to be right." (Death in Pratchett's "Mort")