Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

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beetlenaut
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

I applied the workaround suggested by gfgtdf. You should try the new, new version: 1.0.3a. It seems to work for me.
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UK1
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by UK1 »

Played this campaign all the way through again. My opinions on the bandit scenario remain unchanged. Tried all the things people suggested but to no avail. Had to resort to the same tactic of preying on my knowledge of how the AI responds to things and playing bat-keepaway. I often fall into a hole in Wesnoth where I can't figure out a different way to solve a problem unless it's shown to me. Particularly if the way that I found works. That could very well be the case here. If anyone has a play through of them beating the bandit scenario without employing the kind of cheap, gamey AI bat tricks that I pulled to win I'd much appreciate it. On my first play through I genuinely thought that the large body of water was there specifically so I COULD successfully do the bat stuff.

But that's not why I'm posting. I just want to say that I have a very deep appreciation for how dark the writing was. Understandable given the subject matter.

When the bandit becomes a ghoul, the phrase "Jibbering at what he had become." (I think that was it) sent a shiver up my spine. It just stirred two or three very primal emotions at once and tapped into a very animal, deep-seated fear that I can't quite describe. Storyline typically doesn't do much for me, even when you've got people like Velensk who put actual work into it. But some of the stuff you wrote got to me. And I still don't really think storyline is very important. A good story won't make a bad campaign good and a bad story won't make a good campaign bad. Which is probably why I was caught so off guard by the feels that your campaign gave me completely out of left field.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

UK1 wrote:I just want to say that I have a very deep appreciation for how dark the writing was.
I put some time into it, so I'm glad you like it!
UK1 wrote:If anyone has a play through of them beating the bandit scenario...
Here is an example on hard.
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UK1
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by UK1 »

beetlenaut wrote:
UK1 wrote:I just want to say that I have a very deep appreciation for how dark the writing was.
I put some time into it, so I'm glad you like it!
UK1 wrote:If anyone has a play through of them beating the bandit scenario...
Here is an example on hard.
Thanks, gawgeous.
"Hey you, bats should be nerfed."
"Why?"
"Because I lost a game to bat swarm and I'm bitterUhm... clarity... and... consistency? Yeah yeah that sounds good. Clarity and consistency."
Do not. Nerf. The bat.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

Ok, I finished it on hard.
At first I reload replays, then I will write my comments.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

5 more replays
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

5 more
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

5 more
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

Well. Now Last replay and I can write.

I cant say I played lot of campaigns, in fact I played quite a few, I dont even finished all mainline, but this is best I ever played. Because, as it has been said, it is pleasantly challenging and have an intresting plotline.
At the beginning the plotline is really encouraging, holds attention from the very start and can keep it during first chapter. Unfortunately, after meeting of necromants it becomes less intresting because it transfroms to just series of battles that are just virtually connected by the plotline. Well, it is travelling from point A to point B, it is not a plotline. Appearing of Crelanu and discovering of become-a-lich-know-how revives plotline greatly, but that is a last flash, after this it is again just series of battles.

Now about gameplay.
Spoiler:
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by beetlenaut »

Thanks for all your feedback!

Like you, I use a lot of zombies in this campaign. I never liked them before, but I learned their usefulness while playtesting this.

I've played this campaign on hard without save/loads, so it is certainly possible. Your statistics make it clear that you do that all the time, and you might be happier playing on a lower difficulty instead. I watched most of the replays, and my opinion is that your skill level could improve a lot, but it will never happen if you compensate for problems in your strategy by rerolling the turns. Do what you want though. :)
Spoiler:
A couple people have been unimpressed with the last scenario. (I like it, but then TRoW is my favorite campaign, and its finale is similar.) I would like to improve it, but I don't know what would make it better. Do you have any ideas?
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

beetlenaut wrote:Thanks for all your feedback!
I've played this campaign on hard without save/loads, so it is certainly possible. Your statistics make it clear that you do that all the time, and you might be happier playing on a lower difficulty instead.
Well, I admit that I often use reload when I do obvious mistake. That the is almost only reason I ever used reload. For example, I put away some wounded unit and didnt notice that somehow AI can still kill him. Its like playing chess vs AI, why not to take turn back if you made a stupid mistake? But if something going totally wrong, I prefer to start scenario from the beginning. I can say I finished Carcyn without any reload from the first attempt and and scenario with Badints, Goblin Pillagers and Training without reloads after some attempts. Also when you play 20 scenarios in kinda 3 half-nights and like for 12 hours in total, you cannot concentrate fully, especially after finishing 4-5 scenarios stright and at 03.00 time of night when you have to go for work in the morning ) I was using reloading turns mostly in scenarios with spiders, goblin shamans and dwarves, well, because the idea of these scenarios is absolutely clear (and is the same as in sceanario with woses). You can play more or less accurate, that does not matter. Sorry for this approach :D . I have no desire at all to replay these last scenarios (and last scenario moreover). However, to replay scenarios with gryphons and Crelanu would be intresting.
From the other side, since there is a big difference between playing knowing you own campaign and not knowing it at all. Now I can plan my advancement of units from the very beginning and play much better.
Spoiler:
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by GL_Network »

Aldarisvet wrote:After some thinking I got an idea that Paladins and Mages of Light are only unit types that are not going to yield to that draining scheme. So instead of making a great massacre would be good to create some not a large-scale battle of dark vs light in which Light would have a great advantage with high arcane resistance. That probably would be challenging. Obiously Ghouls which are absolutely usless in this campaign could be intresting choice with their 20% arcane resistance (and still 30% pierce). But before that you need to create some preparatory scenario to level up ghouls. Probably some level with underground lake with lot of merman diviners who also have high resistance to arcane draining?
Actually, ghouls are useful from the Blackwater scenario to the Carcyn scenario, since the enemies in these scenarios have little healing and not too many hit points. They become useful again in the scenarios with mermen, nagas, and spiders (in that order). Maybe you do not know how to use poison, or didn't think about mixing ghouls for attack and ghosts for protection?
Aldarisvet wrote:P.S. I just understand that of course liches are much better than spectres because they can get level4 with lot of health compared to weak Spectres. I could get lots of ancient lichers instead of that lot of ALMAs on spectres. Of course with liches all that scenarios wouldnt be a problem at all (that was not a huge problem even with spectres, especially in scenario with trolls). I know now when I made major mistake - in that easy level with mermaids I should advance as more adepts as I could, and instead I dont even recruited them, just was trying to finish it asap. Later there was not a time for adepts at all, not in the scenario with gryhpons or Crelanu, and moreover it was too late for adepts in scenario with spiders. Wow, if I could know about it from start. I would have adepts with Death Knight's leadership support at that scenario with mermaids (hmm may be Carcyn was not long enough to grow Death Knight because that guy necromancer starts without Ardonna's units list for recall... or I remember there was some already experienced skeleton to recruit? well-well-well who knows that you should use him to get DK, that why Carcyn was so easy). I do not think that such things is fair, actually, if future scenarios designed for some special units without any hint. Well, scanario with Woses can be finished ONLY with Wraithes, that is a good and strong hint, and scenario with mermaids SHOULD demand adepts. Or it should be totally another scenario in which only adepts would be effective (obviously in that scenario with mermaids adepts are not best at all).
Spectres are also available much earlier than liches, which you will have difficulty to get if you don't level dark adepts early on. I don't agree that the scenario with woses requires wraiths however. If you have a decent amount of gold at this point, you should be able to recruit enough ghosts to kill the woses without worrying about leveling them up. The only units that are truly indispensable are shadows, and they only start to be useful after you start the underground scenarios.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

@GL_Network

This campaign about draining anycase. Why should I just bother myself with some tricks with ghouls which are far less resistant to most of attacks than simple skeleton? Ghouls are useful versus drakes. Or mages. Hmm could be good idea to use them in Crelanu's scenario probably? if I only had a couple of Necrophages. However, I am not going to go too deep into all of these.
If this campaign would critically demand advanced Ghouls in later scenarios as I suggested, of course you would have to pay attention to raise some ghouls through campaign. But for now it is just about draining.

P.S. I just tried - 6 ghouls that I could recruit not a nearly enough to do something with Crelanu's mages. That damned mages should be killed quickly, no time to wait while they lose hp with poison. The fact that they have poison does not matter much versus mages, only important that they have good resistances vs fire and arcane compared with other undead. And also they fearless, not bad too. Hmm realy I now think that I should pay attention to rise ghouls from the beginning just for crelanu's scenario. Ghast have 3-10, that a good damage against mage/
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by GL_Network »

The best scenario to level up your ghouls is probably Becalmed (the scenario on the boat). You can rotate ghouls so that some of them heal while the enemy poisons itself by attacking your front line. You should be able to level up two or three ghouls to level 2 with no major loss.

For the scenario with Crelanu, level 2 bats and necromancers will do much better than ghouls. But skeletons and level 1 ghosts are too frail to survive more than a round of combat (shadows are always good for assassination though, but take care not to lose one because they become even more useful underground). Vendraxxis will shine in this scenario. I haven't tried to use chocobones, but maybe their high damage compensates for their frailness.
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Re: Secrets of the Ancients (Undead Campaign)

Post by Aldarisvet »

Skeletons at becalmed are far better because they have much higher blade resistance and also damage.From my point of view artificially level upping that type of units that unconvenient to scenario just for getting some advantage later given you already know that this unit would be needed later is not fine. In case with woses and later developing a draining theme it was perfect. Other things is unfair tricks. It is not good if some scenario is easier than others just for level upping some specific type of unit. In fact this is variation of tomato surprise, if knowing something you would play another way compared if you don't.

For example, that bats in scenario with goblin pillagers is obvious tomato surprise. Not so harmful, of course. I already won a scenario killing goblin leader but Ardonna was almost killed by bats that appeared from nowhere. I lost lot of zombies there. Next time I would come with skeletons there.

@beetlenaut

Btw thank you with the hint about statistics. Never payed attention to that percentage changes, its a great instrument. But as I wrote before, I totally disagree that I largely used reloads to have advantage. Look at scenario with spiders where I admit that I reloaded turns, but not to get better chances but to move better. Well, I have -1% inflicted and -8% taken. That is in limits of standart deviation, really, despite I indeed got some advantage because of reloads, just because I lost 0 units.
And look to Battleground - Inflicted +4%, taken +5%. AI have even advantage here.
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