Proposals for the next version

Discussion and development of scenarios and campaigns for the game.

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zookeeper
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Re: Proposals for the next version

Post by zookeeper »

Inky wrote:The scenarios being easy is part of the problem, but I also feel that what makes these final scenarios unsatisfying is something more fundamental to the scenario's design.
  • South guard elven path: This scenario is won by moving one of your leaders to a certain hex, and since she is so fast you can do this without a single combat ever taking place!
  • Delfador's memoirs: Part of the issue here is the map which is extremely linear, and has some long 1-hex bottlenecks. There are some dead ends but they are just empty - I think something could be done with them. Then there is the enemy lich, who turns out to be just a generic level 3 lich, the kind you've been demolishing all campaign (he should be a level 4 ancient lich, I think), and his army is so pathetic you almost feel sorry for him.
  • Heir to the Throne: There is very little tactical options available here - inevitably the way the scenario goes is that the combined enemy armies immediately converge on you in the upper right corner, you have to defend until they're gone, and then you walk up and kill Asheviere. Something like enemy reinforcements could make the battle more interesting - and I've always felt a scenario titled "The Battle for Wesnoth" should be really epic in order to live up to its glorious name :D
And just to be clear, it would be great if someone redesigned these scenarios. The only reason they haven't been is that it tends to be a lot of work, and not the kind of work that's easy to do collaboratively. One needs to come up with a good, interesting idea, draw a map to accommodate it, write necessary story and dialogue changes and make sure they work, implement the whole thing, and then do at least basic testing. Clearly it's not impossible seeing that people manage to create entire campaigns, but we have almost no people who seem interested in doing that sort of reworking of existing mainline campaign scenarios.

For example, how does one fix the TSG scenario while keeping the story concept more or less the same? Tweaks to the map and balance might improve the difficulty (if it's too easy currently), but in order to really make it a good and enjoyable scenario, one would need to change a whole lot more than that.

So, the elves are attacking because they think you've crossed them even though you have Ethiliel vouching for you. Does that even make sense? Not really, so that should be addressed somehow. Then, in order to keep with the spirit of the original, probably the elves should have overwhelming numbers and you win by accomplishing some special objective which, story-wise, convinces them to stop, and Ethiliel should be pretty involved with whatever happens. That's quite a lot of constraints to work with, even when they're not really hard constraints but rather things one should deviate from only for a good reason.
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Wesbane
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Re: Proposals for the next version

Post by Wesbane »

Inky wrote:South guard elven path: This scenario is won by moving one of your leaders to a certain hex, and since she is so fast you can do this without a single combat ever taking place!
If scenario would last longer and require some planning to win it would be better, but on the other hand this is a novice level campaign and the finale of AToTB is only marginally harder. Though there is actually no standard for what novice, intermediate, expert level means same as difficulty levels in campaigns. Also code looks like it wasn’t updated for a while. Tag [animate_unit] is not used in cutscenes despite of fact it would improve visual side of a campaign.
Inky wrote:Delfador's memoirs: Part of the issue here is the map which is extremely linear, and has some long 1-hex bottlenecks. There are some dead ends but they are just empty - I think something could be done with them. Then there is the enemy lich, who turns out to be just a generic level 3 lich, the kind you've been demolishing all campaign (he should be a level 4 ancient lich, I think), and his army is so pathetic you almost feel sorry for him.
This is an intermediate campaign, so yes it should be more challenging. Ending of Heir to the Throne is by far harder than this. Here player is a stronger side of conflict. He has 100 gold compared to the mare 200 gold of an AI. But he can recall experienced units while opponent has to pay full price for level 2.
However adding more troops for the enemy do no good in interiors. Due to narrow corridors it is not possible for the undead mage to use superior numbers unless he would have weakest possible units.
Making him more powerful is also pointless and doesn’t make sense for story reasons. He just turned into lich and instantly became ancient?
The best solution would be to design whole level as a trap.
Inky wrote:Heir to the Throne: There is very little tactical options available here - inevitably the way the scenario goes is that the combined enemy armies immediately converge on you in the upper right corner, you have to defend until they're gone, and then you walk up and kill Asheviere. Something like enemy reinforcements could make the battle more interesting - and I've always felt a scenario titled "The Battle for Wesnoth" should be really epic in order to live up to its glorious name
This is true for many scenarios, not only mainline ones. Tear down the enemy – go for a leader. While holding some troops in reserve seemed a good idea there is really no tactical advantage in doing so. If you win battle you win the scenario.
As for making it more epic. Well, Northern Rebirth is epic to the point that many call it tedious.
I’m not against changes, but I don’t think that changing one scenario will make campaign more climactic, epic or iconic. Complete rewrite in this case would be desirable just tweaking few scenarios is not worth the effort. It is a good campaign as is.
Inky wrote: But would I be correct in assuming that the white mage situation is the same for all 3 versions?
No.
Inky wrote: Removing the immortality: My reason for this is admittedly not a very solid one - I just think the mechanic feels silly. For me Wesnoth is all about careful positioning, tactics and some roleplaying, and blindly throwing your mages into a horde of enemy units so they can die over and over to delay the enemies is the opposite.
In custom version you can choose to part ways with the mages if they are such offense to you and go straight evil consumed by your legendary pride. ;)
Inky wrote:Telling the player: If you don't tell the player about the immortality, how are they supposed to find out? A skilled player won't put their loyal mages in a situation where they can be killed.
You are not alone in your observations. It was already proposed in thread NR 7 - Settling Disputes. Though this suggestion was ignored in mainline it was implemented in custom version. Nature of the mages is exposed the moment confrontation with ancient lich takes place.

If you played Northern Rebirth on at least 1.8 there is no sense to play it again in 1.12 it didn’t change that much. Rebirth 1.13 might be interesting experience after all this is how most likely Northern Rebirth will look like in the future. There are some good things in it that were ported to custom version.
zookeeper wrote:Clearly it's not impossible seeing that people manage to create entire campaigns, but we have almost no people who seem interested in doing that sort of reworking of existing mainline campaign scenarios.
Yet you are probably the only developer who accepts all the help he can get. Others ignore.

Once upon a time I made an enthusiastic request to restore old rewards for Flight scenario in DW campaign because new ones are problematic. It was out of discussion. Fine. After all what I know? If Mermens didn’t care about corpsies cheerfully frolicking in the Jotha waters among their ranks why should I? Frankly even Kai grandmother didn’t give a fuss about that her grandson has bring those foul creatures with him and defiled waters of her home. Clearly, I was just wrong. :lol:
Then it turns out that this is only a surface change. The code of other scenarios wasn’t changed a bit to handle this new units. They have no dedicated events for them so they are using default ones. So not only characters are oblivious about their presence, but also a game world. They can use items like other units and participate in conversations. Animals also can do that. :?
So I offered my help and posted a patch three days later in development thread for the campaign. The patch was a one text file. It contained code fragments to be pasted into listed campaign files. It also had information what kind of issues it will remove and how to reproduce them. The only thing to do was to launch the campaign in debug mode and check that problems existed and that modifications make them go away. Finish. :mrgreen: Right?
Nearly five years and over 200 downloads later nothing. :roll: Absolutely nothing. :shock: All listed bugs, all problems despite of numerous updates still preserved in unaltered state as the most precious treasures. :annoyed:
So, no. Never again contact with dev team. If they don’t care why should I? After all this is their game and the bugs there, make them look bad. :evil:
The saddest thing about it is this is not some separated event. This is common. I’m not the holder of the record for the oldest exposed bug still present in game. :(
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zookeeper
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Re: Proposals for the next version

Post by zookeeper »

Wesbane wrote:So I offered my help and posted a patch three days later in development thread for the campaign. The patch was a one text file. It contained code fragments to be pasted into listed campaign files. It also had information what kind of issues it will remove and how to reproduce them.
In the unlikely case that someone else would start work on the above before I'm finished: I'll have those incorporated soon.
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zookeeper
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Re: Proposals for the next version

Post by zookeeper »

skeptical_troll wrote:An alternative is: after defeating 3/4 liches (depending on the difficulty) Mal Ravanal is revealed as a random one among the others. The story excuse could be that the liches are holding a magic spell to conceal their identities but this spell is broken once you kill few of them, or Mal Ravanal reveal himself voluntarily out of pure arrogance (to show that he's not afraid of losing anyway). The former probably makes more sense.
For those who are interested, the above is more or less how I've made the scenario work now. However, the dialogue I added isn't great and it's basically not balance-tested at all, so if some of you feel like helping out with that by replaying that scenario now then I think the above version of the scenario file will work with 1.13.6 (I didn't actually try it so I'm not 100% sure). Probably the scenario is too easy now since the liches no longer get any bonus gold from any deaths, but that should be easy to fix with for example more villages or base income, and it's still better than too hard.
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Inky
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Re: Proposals for the next version

Post by Inky »

zookeeper wrote:if some of you feel like helping out with that by replaying that scenario now then I think the above version of the scenario file will work with 1.13.6
I'd be happy to playtest the scenario, but I don't have a save from Wesnoth 1.13 - would anyone else happen to have a 1.13 save for Weldyn Besieged (or one of the previous scenarios)?

And a big thanks to zookeeper for making an effort to improve this scenario!!
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Re: Proposals for the next version

Post by Kylix »

Kente wrote:
Kylix wrote: 2. In The South Guard, Jarek should be a loyal unit (same thing for other units like Sisal in Northern Rebirth) and, in Choice in the Fog, instead of choosing between elves and outlaws, Urza Afalas should be from the first turn an ally unit, but it would be the only scenario in which we couldn't control him. Ethiliel would threaten him, until, in the cave, she and the others realize he had been right.
i totally disagree with this point. First, because i really loved the Outlaws branch (specially Pebbles in the flood) and (if i understand correctly) you want to remove it. Why? Removing a branch doesn't give any deeper meaning to the storyline. In your way, the player will be able to please everyone, but i like the idea you have to choose one side and antagonize the other side. It feels more realistic.
My idea was, from Mal M'Brin's defeat on, transforming the next scenarios into a crossover between elves and outlaws branches. So, "Choice in the Fog" should be renamed "Fog". I felt truly sorry for both Sir Gerrick and Urza Afalas, especially thinking the last one didn't achieve his goal (reunite with his family) and, worst of all, wasn't commemorated, and I also think Ethiliel is stupid not to think that not all the outlaws are merciless people...
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