Improving castles in cave transitions

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Wussel
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by Wussel »

@zookeeper:

Awesome job! It works for me! Can you show how the keep is doing? And the orcish versions? Maybe encampment too.

Elvish and desert would be exotic in caves. But maybe cave elves? You never know.
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zookeeper
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by zookeeper »

Wussel wrote:Can you show how the keep is doing?
Terribly. :whistle: This is overall a bit problematic to do, because I found that when I add or fix one thing, it leads to other changes, and if I fix that it leads to other changes, etc etc. It seems I can't easily just add a few exception rules and have the rest work as before, but instead I have to re-think the way castles and walls work a bit.
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doofus-01
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by doofus-01 »

The terrain-graphics re-work is cool, but I just wanted to bring up a potential problem with not leaving things as-is. The castle walls are a big part of the terrain signifier, the terrain can get a bit muddled without them. The dwarf castle has a (sort-of) unique faded dark-tile base, but the regular castle has regular cobbles.
castle-walls-shot1.jpg
How wrong is it, really, to have the castle-walls show against the cave-walls? For the towers-peaking-out-of-shroud thing that nuorc posted, it looks to me like the map needs a touch-up, rather than the graphics need an overhaul. (Unless that's a carefully balanced MP map, in which case player will know there's a castle there anyway.) Can the place where it looks a bit off, with castle N,NE,NW of cave-wall "just" be solved with a rule lowering the castle-wall layer for that case?Actually, it doesn't look like it, because the transition from castles on top to caves on top, as you move around the -br to -r to -tr images (I think the castle -tr is the problem), always looks bad. Or at least, I'm not bothered enough by this to keep trying.
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zookeeper
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by zookeeper »

doofus-01 wrote:The terrain-graphics re-work is cool, but I just wanted to bring up a potential problem with not leaving things as-is. The castle walls are a big part of the terrain signifier, the terrain can get a bit muddled without them. The dwarf castle has a (sort-of) unique faded dark-tile base, but the regular castle has regular cobbles.
Yeah, that's a fair point. :hmm: I think it's a pretty rare case to have large non-dwarf castles adjacent to walls, but of course I don't exactly have all mainline maps memorized.
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tekelili
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by tekelili »

Just to add some perspective to issue, is rare have non-darvish castle "inside" caves (and map designer has chance of use darvish castle to avoid problems). However problem arises more often with castle "outside" cave (and here map designer may find darvish castle like a bad solution)
castle_outside_cave.png
Be aware English is not my first language and I could have explained bad myself using wrong or just invented words.
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vultraz
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by vultraz »

zookeeper wrote:
doofus-01 wrote:The terrain-graphics re-work is cool, but I just wanted to bring up a potential problem with not leaving things as-is. The castle walls are a big part of the terrain signifier, the terrain can get a bit muddled without them. The dwarf castle has a (sort-of) unique faded dark-tile base, but the regular castle has regular cobbles.
Yeah, that's a fair point. :hmm: I think it's a pretty rare case to have large non-dwarf castles adjacent to walls, but of course I don't exactly have all mainline maps memorized.
THoT S12 and NR S2 both have non-dwarvish castles 'inside' caves, AFAIR.
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nuorc
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by nuorc »

doofus-01 wrote:For the towers-peaking-out-of-shroud thing that nuorc posted, it looks to me like the map needs a touch-up, rather than the graphics need an overhaul.
Probably that, and since I don't know how to do that I'm not very confident...

If the rest of the paragraph was also related to that: I didn't understand a thing, but thank you for pondering the issue. ;)
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Crow_T
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by Crow_T »

OT, but the castle hex looks off upon closer inspection- I've attached what I think is an improvement. The front right (or SE) part of the battlement's merlon looks collapsed currently.
Attachments
castle-concave-bl-new.png
castle-concave-bl-new.png (4.1 KiB) Viewed 7723 times
Wussel
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by Wussel »

@zookeeper:

The keep might be terrible because the floor is lifted to give the keep some hight?

In that case you could put the floor back to ground level. Alternatively you could allow the keep to have walls towards the cave wall.

You could use the dwarfish castle floor to indicate cave castle regardless of the choosen castle walls.

Just a few suggestions.
GbDorn
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by GbDorn »

Somewhat off-topic: chasms (Qx*), lava (Qlf), and lava chasm (Ql) have ugly transitions with some other terrains.
examples
examples
Here is the fix for 1.12 (for core/terrain-graphics.cfg). There is no visible changes when modifying lines 739 to 741 but it can't be bad IMO.

Code: Select all

714c714
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Ss               (!,Ss,H*,M*,A*,Chs,K*)      -230               swamp/water}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Ss               (!,Ss,H*,M*,A*,Chs,K*,Q*)   -230               swamp/water}
716c716
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Iwr              G*,R*,W*,S*,D*,A*,Q*,Ur     -230               interior/wood-regular}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Iwr              G*,R*,W*,S*,D*,A*,Ur        -230               interior/wood-regular}
738,741c738,741
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Gll              (!,Gll,Qx*,W*,Ai,C*,K*)           -270                  grass/leaf-litter}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     (Gg*,Qx*)        (!,Gg*,Qx*,Mm,Ms,Hh,C*,K*)        -271                  grass/green-abrupt}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Gs               (!,Gs,Qx*,C*,K*)                  -272                  grass/semi-dry-abrupt}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Gd               (!,Gd,Qx*,C*,K*)                  -273                  grass/dry-abrupt}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Gll              (!,Gll,Q*,W*,Ai,C*,K*)            -270                  grass/leaf-litter}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     (Gg*,Qx*)        (!,Gg*,Q*,Mm,Ms,Hh,C*,K*)         -271                  grass/green-abrupt}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Gs               (!,Gs,Q*,C*,K*)                   -272                  grass/semi-dry-abrupt}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Gd               (!,Gd,Q*,C*,K*)                   -273                  grass/dry-abrupt}
744c744
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Aa               (!,Aa,Qx*,G*)                    -281                   frozen/snow}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Aa               (!,Aa,Q*,G*)                     -281                   frozen/snow}
759,761c759,761
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Rr               (!,Rr,W*,Ai)                      -320                  flat/road}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Rrc              (!,Rr,W*,Ai)                      -321                  flat/road-clean}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Rp               (!,Rp,W*,Ai)                      -322                  flat/stone-path}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Rr               (!,Rr,W*,Ai,Q*)                   -320                  flat/road}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Rrc              (!,Rr,W*,Ai,Q*)                   -321                  flat/road-clean}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Rp               (!,Rp,W*,Ai,Q*)                   -322                  flat/stone-path}
763,764c763,764
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_LF    *^Gvs          (!,*^Gvs,C*,K*,*^F*,M*,H*,W*)       -330   transition2    embellishments/farm-veg-spring}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_LF    *^Emf          (!,*^Emf,C*,K*,*^F*,M*,H*,W*)       -330   transition2    embellishments/mushroom-farm}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_LF    *^Gvs          (!,*^Gvs,C*,K*,*^F*,M*,H*,W*,Q*)    -330   transition2    embellishments/farm-veg-spring}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_LF    *^Emf          (!,*^Emf,C*,K*,*^F*,M*,H*,W*,Q*)    -330   transition2    embellishments/mushroom-farm}
766,767c766,767
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Ds               (!,Ds,W*,S*,Ai)                    -510                 sand/beach}
< {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Dd               (!,R*,Dd,W*,S*,Ai)                 -510                 sand/desert}
---
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Ds               (!,Ds,W*,S*,Ai,Q*)                 -510                 sand/beach}
> {TRANSITION_COMPLETE_L     Dd               (!,R*,Dd,W*,S*,Ai,Q*)              -510                 sand/desert}
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vultraz
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by vultraz »

I've committed your fixes to master. Thanks :)
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Iris
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Re: Improving castles in cave transitions

Post by Iris »

In the future, please note that we prefer patches to be posted in unified diff format (diff -U if using the command line tool), which includes sufficient context to resolve most issues with outdated patches, including line numbers changing after a release. git diff will produce a diff in this format by default.
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