My Terrain (Mine!)

[doofus-01]

But I think that ideally, unless there's something preventing it, all the alterations (the ~10px shift and baking the transitions into the walls) I mentioned in the previous post should happen regardless of which style of keep gets used, not merely to facilitate the pools idea (which I probably made it sound like). Unless I'm mistaken, the walls are currently unusually low in the hex compared to other castles. Also, having two versions of a wall (one against ground, one against water) is far simpler and more straightforward than combining one generic wall with two different sets of transitions, and doesn't require any compromise in how it actually looks.

Yeah, the walls were low for some reason. I've "baked-in" the inner transitions, but I don't really agree with the last sentence. What's the problem with the separate transitions? They don't seem to cause layering problems, unless I'm forgetting something, and they allow more flexibility and variety.

Spoiler:

camp-new.tgz

(189.47 KiB) Downloaded 158 times

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{NEW:WALL             (Kme,Cme)                (!,C*,K*)                    castle/merfolk/camp-new/castle}
{TRANSITION_COMPLETE_LF    (Cme,Kme)       (!,Kme,Cme,W*,Ss,Q*)    0  non_fading  castle/merfolk/camp-new/castle-to-ground}

[ForestDragon]

I like how you made each tower a bit different from the other, and the transitions look nice too, keep up the good work

[zookeeper]

Yeah, the walls were low for some reason. I've "baked-in" the inner transitions, but I don't really agree with the last sentence. What's the problem with the separate transitions? They don't seem to cause layering problems, unless I'm forgetting something, and they allow more flexibility and variety.

Yeah... I guess there's no problem after all.

[doofus-01]

OK. On to the camp-keeps then. I'm guessing the stone-thrones and the shipwrecks are no go. Would a simple transition like this work? (Obviously early WIP.)

camp-keepWIP.jpg (12.86 KiB) Viewed 4428 times

The north and south halves are different plans; north is submerged cliffs, south is just border stones.

[ForestDragon]

nope, it would confuse players, since a keep needs to be recognisable among the castle tiles, but in other hand, the thing you made can be used for water transition when it's inside the castle, might need a bit smoothening (looks at default water to land transition)

[zookeeper]

Having it look like deep water would be a bit of a problem since then it'd have to actually be deep water. But even if it was more shallow I think it needs something that rises up a bit, otherwise it can be a bit weird if a keep is essentially just a hole.

On that note, I think I never posted a screenshot of what I was trying to do with the pools, so here goes (WIP, uses older tiles, etc). I failed to make a corner- or transition-based version that would have let all adjacent keep tiles produce a big connected pool, but then again there's usually just one keep hex so I don't think that is a major issue. But I don't know whether you like the general idea of pools (regardless of what they look like) surrounded by unconnected spires?

[doofus-01]

Having it look like deep water would be a bit of a problem since then it'd have to actually be deep water. But even if it was more shallow I think it needs something that rises up a bit, otherwise it can be a bit weird if a keep is essentially just a hole.

OK, fair enough. I thought that was where you were going with it, so I misunderstood.

But I don't know whether you like the general idea of pools (regardless of what they look like) surrounded by unconnected spires?

The spires might make it look a bit too much like it is a strange transition to a non-camp hex. Maybe some sort of small object in the six corners could be OK, but not the same spires as the encampment. Anyhow, that's my take on it.

The problem I see with the current pools image is that it involves underwater masonry, which seems really specific to the merfolk (maybe Nagas too), and not very camp-like. A chaotic jumble of rocks around the rim could avoid that. But if that just makes it seem like a random hole, then it sounds like we really need another floor tile.

The image below is for just for discussion (it's crap in many ways), but could sticking with the scavenged ship-wreck idea work, using wood as a distinguishing feature?

[zookeeper]

The spires might make it look a bit too much like it is a strange transition to a non-camp hex. Maybe some sort of small object in the six corners could be OK, but not the same spires as the encampment. Anyhow, that's my take on it.

All right, no spires then.

The problem I see with the current pools image is that it involves underwater masonry, which seems really specific to the merfolk (maybe Nagas too), and not very camp-like. A chaotic jumble of rocks around the rim could avoid that. But if that just makes it seem like a random hole, then it sounds like we really need another floor tile.

Well, I figured that a round pit with very basic cobbled rim and floor wouldn't really imply any particular architectural skills, but as said, I think that if there's no spires or anything else tower- or wall-like around them, it probably wouldn't look that great.

The image below is for just for discussion (it's crap in many ways), but could sticking with the scavenged ship-wreck idea work, using wood as a distinguishing feature?

I think wood might work well, sure. That looks pretty nice already. I'm not that keen on the idea of making it too distinctly based on shipwrecks though (for example by having pieces of sails), but boards as floor elements and mast-like wooden poles as sort of towers (whether in all corners as usual, or in some other arrangement) I think would work very nicely. I'd keep the material just ambiguous enough that it could equally well be made from wood salvaged from a wrecked ship or simply chopped from the nearby forest, because while shipwrecks might be a commodity in some parts of the world, there ought to be plenty of places where they'd be rather out of place.

I think in your latest screenshot, the bigger stones would work better. With those, and more masts/poles, I'd expect it to become a very nice keep. Note that since/if the masts/poles aren't connected with each other, we can do them with just one image per mast/pole variation (instead of 6 x that, as would be the case with normal wall tile variations). I don't think there's an existing macro that can do that, but if we need one I'll write it.

[doofus-01]

I think wood might work well, sure. That looks pretty nice already. I'm not that keen on the idea of making it too distinctly based on shipwrecks though (for example by having pieces of sails), but boards as floor elements and mast-like wooden poles as sort of towers (whether in all corners as usual, or in some other arrangement) I think would work very nicely. I'd keep the material just ambiguous enough that it could equally well be made from wood salvaged from a wrecked ship or simply chopped from the nearby forest, because while shipwrecks might be a commodity in some parts of the world, there ought to be plenty of places where they'd be rather out of place.

OK, stuck with the floorboards, but nothing screaming "shipwreck".

I think in your latest screenshot, the bigger stones would work better. With those, and more masts/poles, I'd expect it to become a very nice keep. Note that since/if the masts/poles aren't connected with each other, we can do them with just one image per mast/pole variation (instead of 6 x that, as would be the case with normal wall tile variations). I don't think there's an existing macro that can do that, but if we need one I'll write it.

In the attached tgz are the images with the stones as the standard -n,-ne,-se, etc. transitions, and three little wood posts. I'm not sure what the requirements would be for the posts for the new macro. Worst case, I suppose we can just draw the post on the leading clock-wise edge of the stone sections.

[zookeeper]

In the attached tgz are the images with the stones as the standard -n,-ne,-se, etc. transitions, and three little wood posts. I'm not sure what the requirements would be for the posts for the new macro. Worst case, I suppose we can just draw the post on the leading clock-wise edge of the stone sections.

Great! I'll write/add that macro ASAP; I'll make it so that it draws the given image-with-variations centered at the corners, so the only requirement for the mast images is for the point at which they touch the ground to be at the center of the image.

[ForestDragon]

Hmmm, not too bad of an idea but i think:either:keeps should pretty much scream 'Keep' and not some water
or if you are going this direction, then i think then masts and stuff look good but 1.maybe more parts, since it looks too much like wooden water and maybe make them, say, more random, and not 100% straight (like some fell over), this can make a nice effect, and then, even if you find another keep idea, you can still used it as, say, water in place of a large shipwreck, which isn't in a condition as good as the ones you drew before
so to sum up: the masts are good, but need more amount, and more randomness, or maybe other damaged parts (expect sails)

[zookeeper]

Ok, here's what you need for the corner masts (normal image variation numbering supported):

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#define CORNER_OVERLAY TERRAIN ADJACENT IMAGESTEM
    [terrain_graphics]
        map="
2
,  3
1"

        [tile]
            pos=1
            type={TERRAIN}
        [/tile]
        [tile]
            pos=2
            type={ADJACENT}
        [/tile]
        [tile]
            pos=3
            type={TERRAIN},{ADJACENT}
        [/tile]

        rotations=png,foo,png,foo,png,foo

        [image]
            name={IMAGESTEM}@V.@R0
            variations=";2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9"
            layer=10
            center=52,72
            base=52,72
        [/image]
    [/terrain_graphics]

    [terrain_graphics]
        map="
.
,  3
2
,  1"

        [tile]
            pos=1
            type={TERRAIN}
        [/tile]
        [tile]
            pos=2
            type={ADJACENT}
        [/tile]
        [tile]
            pos=3
            type={TERRAIN},{ADJACENT}
        [/tile]

        rotations=png,foo,png,foo,png,foo

        [image]
            name={IMAGESTEM}@V.@R0
            variations=";2;3;4;5;6;7;8;9"
            layer=10
            center=72,108
            base=72,108
        [/image]
    [/terrain_graphics]
#enddef

{CORNER_OVERLAY Kme (!,Kme,!,C*,K*) symbols/terrain_type_info}

The macro has that bizarre rotations hack simply because doing it "right" requires one little engine feature I haven't yet committed. This one is just a version that you can use right now with 1.13.4 or earlier.

[doofus-01]

Cool, that seems to work pretty well. Attached is a tarbomb with six variations on the wooden posts/masts. The good ol' RNG likes to make clusters of identical images, it seems, so the variations have to look pretty similar in order for that not to be too obvious. I think we need to make a choice, do we go with something like wood[3,4,5].png (masts/crosses) or wood[,2,6].png (simple posts)?

[zookeeper]

Cool, that seems to work pretty well. Attached is a tarbomb with six variations on the wooden posts/masts. The good ol' RNG likes to make clusters of identical images, it seems, so the variations have to look pretty similar in order for that not to be too obvious. I think we need to make a choice, do we go with something like wood[3,4,5].png (masts/crosses) or wood[,2,6].png (simple posts)?

I'm not sure. On one hand, the simple posts are kind of nice, but if you have nothing but them, it's maybe not clear enough what they are. On the other hand, the masts/crosses work better individually, but if all of them are like that, it might also look weird... and I think they'd need some further alteration (not that I have specific ideas) to make them look a bit less like a perimeter of literal crosses since that might cause it to seem like... a graveyard.

I'll try to stare at them a bit more, but in any case I think they could generally be a bit longer; especially the simple posts could, I think, comfortably be almost twice their current height.

[ForestDragon]

Well, i am seriously unsure if using water-like hex as a keep is a good idea, here are a few things that distinguish keeps from castles:
1.higher towers
2.higher floor
3.and most important: same style, but with only a few alterations (like on top of towers) i mean, it must be recognisable, since the current one would confuse, like 90% players
btw, to make sure that you mast keep efforts aren't wasted, here is an idea: make it maybe a water encampment counterpart, and also maybe a ruined water castle (not the current one, i mean ruined version of the current water castle)