Balance changes for 1.18

[Yuzir]

Hejnewar:

"I love how thunder buff was completely overlooked here."

Bad too, but at least he doesn't level in an OP lv2 unit.

"Yes with the least offensive lvl 2 archer in game that is more or less drake burner on offense."

Drake Burner is on overal much worser, even level 2 does less melee if you follow the ranged path low def on all terrains more xp to lvl etc...

"You are saying that you managed to evaluate the impact of this change on the game already and now you are saying that changes should be smaller to evaluate them. But... If you managed to evaluate them already how do you know that I didnt do the same?"

Not hard to do when you overpower like this an unit, giving him same melee damage as his lvl 3, way more hp, and even make easier the way how to obtain it.

Outlaw 8 mp (9 if quick)?
Now a food unit is fast like a horse or more, lol.

If you were trully following this thread you would realise how many changes were made because of community, but because I dont agree with your opinion you say that my decisions are one sided and that this game is no longer community project. Well you can try doing balance by including everything everyone says that it surely will be for players right? And it surely will be way better. Unfortunatley for community I have my own opinions and thoughts

.

Why not making something like a pool for balance changes, open to long time players ?

[name]

I think something we should all consider is how long the unit balance has been frozen in time only because the wesnoth development project has been understaffed. Before Hejnewar, there were what... 10 or 12 years since the preceding head of multiplayer balance?

It is not like balance changes stopped because balance was perfected. Or because the development team made campaign designers and experienced competitive players a promise to put unit statistics in stasis. The changes stopped only because no one was around to make them anymore.

Why not making something like a pool for balance changes, open to long time players ?

My recollection of the long ago previous phase of balance development, was that analysis of replays (between experienced competitive players) was key. The opinions of experienced players was still valued, but not nearly as much as evidence. So perhaps the best way for interested long time players to help out is to go download the latest 1.17.20 (or wait for 1.18 if they prefer) and start playing. Discover the new meta and let the evidence of any new or remaining imbalances accumulate on the replays server.

[Andy3213]

Outlaw - mp changed from 7 to 8
They stole horse?
Foot-based move is from 4 to 8 (with quick trait)
9 isn't realisme IMHO

[Yuzir]

I thought the same thing when I saw the change.
It's part of the plan to OP Dwarves even more.
This will mess up a lot of map balancing.
So it will be the only faction with a scout that will be able to hold well villages, that can run aeway even more easly now and that is also cheap.
There was a reason for wich units with lot of mp had lower defense in towns, even the bat was given fereal to give it only 50% def. In villages.

[Hejnewar]

Honestly thats probably not even enough. How can he fight vs 10 mp elvish scouts? Def 9 mp should be better for the faction.

[Andy3213]

Alliance have griffon riders with 8 and 10 lvl2 mp - good unit vs elves
In several maps you need 8 mp unin or 7 mp ghost ( such as caves of the basilisk ) to fast village taking, otherwise you lose 3 gold. Recruiting a footpad you spand 1.5 gold ( 50% quick ), but save 10 ( griffon ); 15.5 gold scout is the cheapest, 14 gold for 8-9 mp it will be very cheap. ( Bats have 16 hp and lvl0 )
1 mp ≈ 7 hp ( 5 for resilient, 2 for quick ) ≈ 20% unit's power or cost ≈ 3 gold. Therefore a 8 mp footpad should be more expensive; 17 gold is more than a glider and bad with hodor.
And about necrophage - it have 9×3 with poison even in day in single strike. Maybe it's better to split into 7×3 with poison and 9×3 without.
Also, griffon riders cost less when horseman now; dwarf units are more expensive than humans, so i suppose battle scouts should be like this, and they eating meat, not grass) it's fantasy, not chess.

[Hejnewar]

Bruhs
a) have you read the topic? (well i know you didnt because ur taking changes out of the first post, not the updated one nor actual patchnotes cuz this all happened few months ago)
b) have you noticed that it is only for lvl 2 thus non recruiitable outside of AoH? Like seriosuly thats a big deal.
c) how is map balancing being messed up by 8 mp unit or even 9 mp unit? well they dont thats bs, it works fine

I have no idea where the chess suddenly came from but they could use some balance yes.

[Andy3213]

a,c) yes, i dont reed actual patchnotes, sorry.
7 mp is good.
b) this unit may be "recruiitable" for 21 exp in the amount 2 or 3

I mean it should balancing in right way, without runners with the speed of a horse or something like that.

[Hejnewar]

Nah that actually doesn't have much to do with balance, its lore that this infringes upon and thats why it didnt make it.

[revolting_peasant]

I don't understand how people can voice opinions about these changes when the motivation or rationale for them is not explained in the OP.

What was the process here? What was happening with the gameplay that required a massive rebalance? Is it following some earlier set of changes which should in hindsight have triggered a rebalance? I just don't get it.

[Hejnewar]

It (XP) no joke became important for the first time. It never mattered, it was never changed to be balanced, whatever was put in was there and no one bothered to change it. And then afterlife happened so for like I believe only time XP was changed in mass, because After is popular and xp is important there. I honestly planed to do that even without that so happy little coiincidence.

[MGK]

Soothsayer - melee attack strikes changed from 2 to 3, mp changed from 6 to 7, cost changed from 25 to 28.

I noticed that now the Saurian Soothsayer is the one and only leader in Default era with 7 MP. The same holds for the Saurian Seer in Age of Heroes.

I guess that units should be available as leaders unless they have ≥ 7 MP, like swimming, get into berserk frenzy, or teleport around. If that is not the rule, then what hinders Saurian Ambushers (who lore wise lead the Saurians outside their villages) to lead also?

[Hejnewar]

I actually noticed that earlied but never got around to fixing it but thats done now.