Removed Help System Restrictions

Post by **Viliam** » April 22nd, 2006, 4:33 pm

I think it would be good if the help contained checkbox "Show all pages" (turned off by default).

...ok, ok, I know what is the general attitude about solving discussions by adding an option that allows both ways. But IMHO this is different. This is not only like "one person prefers to see all pages, another prefers to see them all" -- the difference is that the same person in different situations may want to see it differently.

Imagine the situation of a beginner -- there are a few hundred help pages (for a few hundred units, etc), it is scary. It is a nice feature if the help highlights the few relevant pages. The bad thing is only that it censors the rest (especially the info about advanced versions of player's units). Selection is good, forced selection is bad.

So, I suggest to redefine the feature from the "display only discovered information" to "(optionally) display only relevant information". And we do not need to remember what the player has already discovered in previous scenarios, because the relevant information can be determined by the current situation. Relevant information is:

- terrains existing in this map
- enemy and allied units existing in this map
- my existing and recruitable units, and their possible advancements
- traits of existing units
- ...?

Simply, the option would mean "show me only all information which can be useful to win the current scenario."

Post by **Dave** » April 22nd, 2006, 5:00 pm

turin wrote:
Tomsik wrote:I think that restrictions are feature.
Although it is a "feature", almost everyone agrees that it is not a desired feature.

Do you have any evidence at all that 'almost everyone' agrees that it's not a desired feature, or is this just an opinion?

Post by **turin** » April 22nd, 2006, 5:11 pm

Dave wrote:
turin wrote: Although it is a "feature", almost everyone agrees that it is not a desired feature.
Do you have any evidence at all that 'almost everyone' agrees that it's not a desired feature, or is this just an opinion?

It has been brought up several times on the forum, and I have never once seen a post saying it was desired to keep it, while there were many posts saying it was desirable to remove it.

I could find the threads for you in you really want hard evidence.

Post by **Dave** » April 22nd, 2006, 5:57 pm

turin wrote: It has been brought up several times on the forum, and I have never once seen a post saying it was desired to keep it, while there were many posts saying it was desirable to remove it.

I could find the threads for you in you really want hard evidence.

Usually if there is a feature that some people like and some people don't like, the people who don't like it will be much more vocal than the people who do like it.

E.g. Drakes. If you looked at the average thread on them, you'd get the impression that 80+% of people want them removed. I think the opinion of the community at large is very different.

David

Post by **allefant** » April 22nd, 2006, 6:35 pm

I don't know if this was suggested before - but maybe it could be made on a per-campaign basis. So, whenever I want to look up a unit, I can click the Help button on the start screen, and look it up.

But if I play e.g. HttT, and open the in-game help, then it would only list all units already seen in the course of the campaign - so you wouldn't lose that "RPG-like" feeling of it, which I do like.

Post by **turin** » April 23rd, 2006, 1:29 am

Dave wrote:Usually if there is a feature that some people like and some people don't like, the people who don't like it will be much more vocal than the people who do like it.

Sure... but I have seen absolutely no posts against the removal of the feature. (Some would like it changed, instead of completely removed, but none think it is good in the current form). You would think that if anyone wanted it to stay, at least one of them would post, since otherwise the feature will be removed.

Which is I guess what you're doing. You want the "feature" to stay, right? If so, just say it...

Post by **Dave** » April 23rd, 2006, 3:20 am

turin wrote:
Dave wrote:Usually if there is a feature that some people like and some people don't like, the people who don't like it will be much more vocal than the people who do like it.
Sure... but I have seen absolutely no posts against the removal of the feature. (Some would like it changed, instead of completely removed, but none think it is good in the current form). You would think that if anyone wanted it to stay, at least one of them would post, since otherwise the feature will be removed.

Which is I guess what you're doing. You want the "feature" to stay, right? If so, just say it...

Sure, I like the feature. I thought that it would be evident that at least some people like it, since someone took the time and effort to code it. I've also heard other people say they like it in the past too.

If there was overwhelming evidence that almost everyone didn't like this feature, I'd be happy for it to be removed, but so far I haven't seen that evidence.

David

Website · Post by **Sapient** » April 23rd, 2006, 5:05 am

Patch 538 seems like information overload and undesired spoilers to me.

Seeing a new unit for the first time is a magical kind of moment. Removing "help restrictions" would be like monster rancher listing a cd database in-game: while you can get the information online, it may spoil the fun a bit.

However, I agree it is a bit annoying when you install a new version and can't browse the unit descriptions you knew already; isn't there a way to bypass that by going into debug mode?

Post by **Dave** » April 23rd, 2006, 5:06 am

Sapient wrote:isn't there a way to bypass that by going into debug mode?

Yes.

Disto · Post by **Disto** » April 23rd, 2006, 11:19 am

Wouldn't it be a better idea just to remove the fact that it doesn't show the possible advancements. IMHO if I was new, then I wouldn't want to have to trawl through all 200 units to find the one I wanted, anyway if you had stuff like the Imperial Era installed that'd be even more. I'd like to see it cut down so you can see stuff which is applicable to you.

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » April 23rd, 2006, 11:22 am

Disto wrote:Wouldn't it be a better idea just to remove the fact that it doesn't show the possible advancements.

Indeed. It's no good to not show advancements just because you haven't gotten them, because advancements are actually part of the unit's usefulness.

Imagine if you were being taught to play Chess by a computer, but it didn't tell you that pawns could promote until you actually got one to the 8th rank.

Disto · Post by **Disto** » April 23rd, 2006, 11:26 am

Elvish Pillager wrote:
Disto wrote:Wouldn't it be a better idea just to remove the fact that it doesn't show the possible advancements.
Indeed. It's no good to not show advancements just because you haven't gotten them, because advancements are actually part of the unit's usefulness.

Imagine if you were being taught to play Chess by a computer, but it didn't tell you that pawns could promote until you actually got one to the 8th rank.

Erm.. I probably worded this wrongly but I thought I said It'd be good if we removed the bit which stops it showing advancements. Which means that I agree with you so

Elvish_Pillager · Post by **Elvish_Pillager** » April 23rd, 2006, 11:43 am

Disto wrote:Erm.. I probably worded this wrongly but I thought I said It'd be good if we removed the bit which stops it showing advancements. Which means that I agree with you so

That's odd, did I word my response in a way that made it sound like we wouldn't be in agreement? lol...

Post by **Kestenvarn** » April 23rd, 2006, 12:58 pm

Would reordering Help like an expandable directory list be a good idea?
(Clicking on each name would toggle expand, and show/hide the upgrades. There would also be an Expand None button and an Expand All button in the corner of the window.)

Hypothetical Setup
> Base Unit
>> Upgrade #1
>>> Upgrade #1 of Upgrade #1
>>> Upgrade #2 of Upgrade #1 (Currently unknown.)
>>>> Upgrade #1 of Upgrade #2 (Currently unknown.)
>> Upgrade #2
> Base Unit (Currently unknown.)
>> Upgrade (Currently unknown.)
> Base Unit

Appearance in Campaign
> Base Unit
+> Upgrade #1
>> Upgrade #2
> Base Unit

Appearance in Campaign, Expand All
> Base Unit
>> Upgrade #1
>>> Upgrade #1 of Upgrade #1
>> Upgrade #2
> Base Unit

Appearance in Multiplayer, Expand None
+ Base Unit
+ Base Unit
> Base Unit

Appearance in Multiplayer
> Base Unit
+> Upgrade #1
>> Upgrade #2
+ Base Unit
> Base Unit

Appearance in Multiplayer, Expand All
> Base Unit
>> Upgrade #1
>>> Upgrade #1 of Upgrade #1
>>> Upgrade #2 of Upgrade #1
>>>> Upgrade #1 of Upgrade #2
>> Upgrade #2
> Base Unit
>> Upgrade
> Base Unit

Prometheus · Post by **Prometheus** » April 23rd, 2006, 1:10 pm

What I am getting at is there are some commonly proposed variants (the less or no luck variant notoriously) which should be made easily available. The repository stores variants, but not in an easily referenced way. Perhaps a list of patches that contain working variants could be made.

The Battle for Wesnoth Forums

Removed Help System Restrictions

This is advice. Don't tell me to code it myself.