The Modern Multiplayer Map Reader's Digest

[Doc Paterson]

ok you got me.

you just implemented some helpful changes in the newest version that solves the probems i was lamenting about earlier.

but now that we solved those problems

Still not sure what you mean, but okay.

[Rigor]

Alright - Here are some updated config and map files. For anyone not familiar, unzip these and put the 2 map files (updates of Basilisk and HGB) into Wesnoth/data/multiplayer/maps, and let them overwrite the old ones. The other files, which give player 2 a starting village on all non-Silverhead maps, go into Wesnoth/data/multiplayer/scenarios, and should also replace the old ones.

These will probably end up being committed sooner or later, so try them out and give me as much feedback as possible.

NOTE: THESE ARE FOR THE DEV VERSION (1.7.4). I think grr is making a stable version....

that, obviously

[Doc Paterson]

ok you got me.

you just implemented some helpful changes in the newest version that solves the probems i was lamenting about earlier.

Ha, that was almost a month ago. Thus the confusion.

Anyways, if you want to work on any of those user maps with the help (or permission) of their authors, go right ahead.

[Yogibear]

I am not sure if i found some kind of problem, so i will just tell what i experienced and what i think about it and wait for comments.

I played Knalgans yesterday vs Undead on Sablestone Delta. There was many turns of keeping the free upkeep limit and positioning, then i build a pile of units with the accumulated gold and started to attack. My original hope was to get some undead units trapped at second watch (i was P2), but that didn't work out, so i marched on and conquered a village at day.

Then my problems began. On second daytime, i got attacked and started a full retreat. There were three ghouls, one i killed in the village, who left a poisoned ulf and two more who now started poisoning my units (preferably thunderers). I retreated further at dusk and got two more units poisoned. By then i discarded my retreating plans and decided to stand and fight. I used whatever good terrain i could find and started to strike back. I had a good amount of outlaws, so i could hit pretty hard.

I managed to kill both ghouls, ulfed an adept, killed another one and one or two more units. At least that took away the poison. The remaining four adepts gave me a bitter next turn, but then i managed to kill 3 of them and that basically turned the tide.

But:
Killing the three adepts was an extremely lucky turn, one that saw me hitting almost all the time. I wouldn't want to know what had happened if i managed to kill say only 1 adept. The following turn probably would have teared my defense apart.

So i wonder: How are Knalgans supposed to deal with this?
Unless i go for an Hodor style of play, i have those 4 mp Dwarves. I attack at day, so i need them to deal some considerable amount of damage, which means they have to be directly at the frontline. As you can see, i am able to get them there by first daytime.
But i am not able to retreat them in time. They are at least 12 moves away from the next village and by that time i am fully engaged in the battle. Poison is deadly by then.

I don't see an alternative than to stand and fight and hope for the best. This time i was lucky, plus i had the advantage of fighting in the night, where my outlaws are strong. If i face drakes or Loys, things would probably look a lot more grim.

Btw, i think dwarves have the same problem on Fallenstar Lake. Are those maps just too big for the short-legged dwarves or am i missing something here? Or did i simply overestimate undead? Replay is attached.

[Doc Paterson]

Well, Hodor *does* scoff at Undead, so a more Hodorian approach may indeed help you a lot on such maps. In regards to Sablestone though, I've for some time now considered adding advance keeps, just to keep things a little more dynamic and interesting. That may, by default, make slower units more useful there.

I'm currently testing out a few ideas, and will let you guys know what I come up with. Sablestone is probably due for a face-lift anyway.

Suggestions welcome, of course.

[Yogibear]

Having an advanced keep on Sablestone is a good idea imo, because as you can see on my replay, the defender can afford to wait for two turns, until he starts to build up his own forces to await the attack, which saves him a lot of money (he even waited 3 turns, i think).

Another important question is if knalgans are meant to do a fighting retreat or not (because the enemy units are almost always faster than them). I don't think that is a bad idea in general: Dwarves are tough and during the retreat, the opponent can't attack with full strength, as some of his units will most likely be not in reach. But i deem it to be necessary to have a village or two within reach for the Dwarves, to cycle out wounded units. 3 or even 4 turns to get to the next village is just too much.

[chaoticwanderer]

I second adding a forward keep to SD. There's just too much distance between the keeps and makes it too easy to defend.

[Doc Paterson]

Some treats here:

A new 1v1 map called Arcanclave Citadel. A select few have viewed/played this one at earlier stages in its development. It goes without saying that it is still being adjusted, but regardless, I'm very happy with it. In all of my years here, I don't think I've seen a 1v1 with a similar core dynamic. Don't be alarmed by the cave-looking floors - It's cave path (flat alias). I will also say that this one will probably take more than one try to really get the hang of, and that it lends itself to longer games. I've also included the config file in there, which sets the gold at 150 and gives P2 two starting villages.

Replays are helpful, as always.

In that folder, you will also find an update to Sablestone Delta. Massive changes there, which we can discuss if anyone is confused.

[Rigor]

very fine map, liked it !the main batle takes place in the middle and u leave 2,3 units on the periphery to fight for ur cash villages. congrats !

[Doc Paterson]

very fine map, liked it !the main batle takes place in the middle and u leave 2,3 units on the periphery to fight for ur cash villages. congrats !

Thanks very much. I've actually had a few games there where big battles happen on the side-corners as well.

One thing that I enjoy on that one is breaking into the opponent's perimeter keep (with leader), and flooding their "network" with units.

[Rigor]

exactely what i did :D:D i hope its not too much of an advantage. but interesting concept !

[grrr]

Now also in the Map updates, v.0.2

Available from the add-ons server.

Some treats here:

A new 1v1 map called Arcanclave Citadel
In that folder, you will also find an update to Sablestone Delta. Massive changes there, which we can discuss if anyone is confused.

Also, HGB changed back to the traditional schedule, instead of starting at afternoon.

[ps7]

Now I propose two issue of Hornshark Island.

<issue 1>
On chaotic vs non-chaotic matchup, chaotic side can take 2 villages too easily,
and get too huge advantage on first night(especially chaotic side is P1).
(I know "rush" is possible on other map too ,but not so easy and very hard to take 2villages at first night.)

<issue 2>
Enough deepwater gives vampire bat "safety zone" and make them too powerful.
especially (18,28)/(8,5) is headache of non-Drake race and it interrupt counter-attack of lawful side.
(other flying unit is ok because of their cost and upkeep).

I attached some sample replay to show issue1(both played by me and untill turn4)
and replay with nani(I intended to show issue1 also but it shows issue2 perfectly).
　

[Doc Paterson]

Now I propose two issue of Hornshark Island.

<issue 1>
On chaotic vs non-chaotic matchup, chaotic side can take 2 villages too easily,
and get too huge advantage on first night(especially chaotic side is P1).
(I know "rush" is possible on other map too ,but not so easy and very hard to take 2villages at first night.)

<issue 2>
Enough deepwater gives vampire bat "safety zone" and make them too powerful.
especially (18,28)/(8,5) is headache of non-Drake race and it interrupt counter-attack of lawful side.
(other flying unit is ok because of their cost and upkeep).

I attached some sample replay to show issue1(both played by me and untill turn4)
and replay with nani(I intended to show issue1 also but it shows issue2 perfectly).
　

I've been busy these last few days, but I'm having a look at these now. It's probably true that vamp bats are a little strong here, so I'll see what I can do. I do remember though seeing a match that you and nani did on that map, you as UD, him as Loyalists, in which your rush didn't work so well.

[Yogibear]

I have played a couple of matches with the new maps that flag a village for P2 to prevent rushes for certain matchups.

I am not sure and it is difficult to judge, as many other factors play a role as well, but i have the feeling that flagging a village in advance is overpowering P2. I give you two replays to watch at: I wouldn't call them evidence for my theory, as P1 did some mistakes as well, but they surely feature unusual circumstances:

The first replay is Knalgans vs Orcs on Hamlets. It features P2 (Orcs) rushing P1 successfully despite pretty bad luck in the beginning. I mean if i experience bad luck on my first night time attack as P2, i should be really in trouble, no?

Edit:
Hmm, looking again at the replay it seems like the inefficient taking of villages of P1 combined with the lack of recruits in the beginning was the key to get him into trouble. So maybe that is not such a good example.

The second replay is Loys vs Undead on Caves of the Basilisk. Again i was a little unlucky in the beginning which was kept throughout the whole game. Nevertheless P2 didn't suffer all too much from that. P1 was attacking a little carelessly in the beginning, but i think without that extra village it would have hit me much harder. There are other explanations as well, as i was using a slightly unusual recruiting.

What do you think?