Imperial Era Art Project (Workin' on Orcin')

[UnwiseOwl]

@freeforestify: I like it, I feel like you've got the idea of these guys nicely, although I have to agree that the body is more humanlike than orclike atm. But still, the idea of actual Imperial Era portraits by real artisty types...ooh, it makes me all tingly! Thanks, keep up the good work!

@amorphous: Hrmm...looking at the descriptions:

"Pugnatores were trained for those occasions when the Lavinian crowds demanded straightforward bludgeoning rather than intricate swordplay in the games. Those lucky few who have escaped Lavinian slavery continue to maintain their skills and abilities, and teach them to any of their brethren as are eager to learn."

"To satisfy the constant Lavinian demand for variety in bloodshed, some Pugnatores trade in their clubs for spears and focus on accuracy rather than speed with their whips."

"The Feral Bestiarius gets his name as a tribute to his animal-like instincts, honed over a lifetime of training."

As you can see, the descriptions for these guys are pretty limited, so I don't think you're likely to run into any major issues there. That said, I'm sure that Temuchin will be revising them some time in the near future to give them a little more detail, so if he has some direction that he wants them to go in now would be the time to say. (Hint, hint). If we see anything that we feel doesn't fit the IE or the units I'm sure we'll jump in, but for now I think we're just really impressed by your work. If I had to gripe, I guess I'd say that I'm not a huge fan of the facemask, but the more I see it the more I like it, so it's not a gamebreaker for me.

While you're working with the Bestiarius line, I don't think there will be any issues with art clashing with gameplay concerns, since the Bestiarius line provide some much needed impact and stabby damage to what is otherwise an extremely blade-focused faction. If there are the kind of substantial changes that would actually affect the art that need to be made to the faction for balancing and variety reasons I believe that they're much more likely to occur within the Samnis and Gallus lines.

[freeforestify]

Hope you like it. Maybe someone can help me doing his hands?

[Temuchin Khan]

As you can see, the descriptions for these guys are pretty limited, so I don't think you're likely to run into any major issues there. That said, I'm sure that Temuchin will be revising them some time in the near future to give them a little more detail, so if he has some direction that he wants them to go in now would be the time to say. (Hint, hint).

Actually, so far I'm quite pleased with the new Orcei art. I have no changes to propose just yet. Great job, guys!

[homunculus]

Better late than never, especially considering there might be further portraits.

Lean like a mage.
Orcs in Wesnoth are not green.
It might be more natural to hold a whip coiled.

As for the palms of the hands, I think they are ok, especially compared to other portraits.

[Temuchin Khan]

Orcs in Wesnoth are not green.

That's a good point. Aside from the skin color, and some of the other corrections that others have already made, I'd say the portraits are coming along nicely.

I must say, I'm pleased and flattered to see this renewed interest in my Orcei! New sprites! And real portraits! Wow!

[freeforestify]

I also added a bit more light.

[UnwiseOwl]

It looks great, freeforestify, I love the texture and the whole outfit, you've really brought the sprite to life. I'd love to be able to use it, but it's still too slim.
I imagine the Besiarius line as BIG orcs, they're large and bulky, almost trolllike slavedriver types..
This guy looks too graceful and slender.

[homunculus]

One of the reasons for the figure looking lean probably comes from desperately trying to draw the left upper arm (as the brain is probably telling us that there must be the arm), and distorting the ribcage for that reason (otherwise the upper arm would be less visible).
At least this is why I think it looks so lean, and somewhat strange around the spear arm.

A reference could be the litch that LordBob is currently drawing in art contribs, even though it is a lean mage.

[freeforestify]

Here's another sketch for the bestiarius. Maybe a bit more orcish? please comment on it

[homunculus]

That is a lot better, not awkward at all any more but looks quite strong.

You have made the head smaller, though, I think it would be better to have the head larger, something like in the attached image. In Wesnoth portraits the heads seem to be slightly larger than in real life (although not as much larger than in the sprites).

I am not the best specialist on human anatomy, and I might have interpreted the light source wrong, but I suggest to consider those things:
1) I think the bone in the upper arm is more or less where I put the dark red line. That is, bringing the shoulder joint more near the body. Would make it look more certain that the shoulder joint is connected safely. The light green is meant to be where the leather plate edge could hint at the direction of the upper arm. And then you might want to shift the shoulder armor a bit closer, too. Put the purple line where I would think the shoulder armor would be, assuming it is not supposed to protect the shoulder from behind and leave the front uncovered.
2) There tends to be a darker shadow of this shape where I put the darker green, as I have noticed from the few human studies I have attempted it has helped a lot to make it look more like body. I suggest to see if your references confirm that.

[UnwiseOwl]

This Bestiarius is very cool, and I'm sure that there are UMC where it could be used (necromancer orc, anybody?), but I'm not at all convinced that it gels properly with the Roman Gladiator/Savage Orcs idea that is the theme being the Orcei Gladiatores. The first model is much better from that point of view.

For potential portait (and sprite) artists, the general vibe that we're going for:
Lavinians: Roman legionaires. Strong, proper and disciplined. Nemidians are Numidian cavalry of the Marian/pre-imperial period (light cavalry, big on the bare chests and gold), while the auxilla are more the lower-class, less disciplined support troops.
Orcei: A mix between mainline orcs and gladiators, these are gladiators that have escaped, so they have Roman gladiator type armour supplemented by their own rude additions/repairs. The Gallus and Pagnator lines are large, warlike orcs modelled on the orcish grunt line, while the others are smaller, more technical, modelled on goblins and wolf-riders. Temuchin and I are still working out (for gameplay reasons) which of these the Samnis line is (or whether it has a category all of its own).
Marauders: These are barbarian invaders, Gauls and German warrior types with a sort of viking-y thing thrown in.
Sidhe: Elves are elves. Raindancer lines are glowy, lightning enhanced mage types, and the others are elusive forest types. They're not dark elves, but their descendants will be, so a little bit of shadowyness is fine.
Issaelfr: Elves are elves. These elves live in the snow. Some of them ride yaks.
Cavernei: These guys are dwarves, and they're probably going to undergo some changes at some point in the future, so it might be a good idea to hold off on the artworks for a little while. Or we might be able to steal mainline portraits for most of them anyway.

[artisticdude]

It looks a bit like he's leaning backwards too far for comfort. I think it's partially a side effect of the head being rather small in relation to his body, but I'd also make the waist/hips a bit broader and emphasize the position of the legs via the shape of the robe.

That being said, it's a very cool concept, and the musculature on the torso looks amazing.

[homunculus]

This Bestiarius is very cool, and I'm sure that there are UMC where it could be used (necromancer orc, anybody?) [...] Orcei: A mix between mainline orcs and gladiators, these are gladiators that have escaped, so they have Roman gladiator type armour supplemented by their own rude additions/repairs. The Gallus and Pagnator lines are large, warlike orcs modelled on the orcish grunt line, while the others are smaller, more technical, modelled on goblins and wolf-riders. [...]

Now, sorry if my incompetence about the era has caused confusion.

What makes you think it is a necromancer orc? The horned skull on the belt? The previous iteration also has a similar skull on the shoulder. What would you suggest instead of the skull? Or is there anything else that is the real problem?

Was it meant to look more like a goblin than an orc? Then what about the sprites, they look like orcs rather than goblins, don't they?

If the goblin vs orc thing gets sorted out, as far as it could be an orc portrait I just keep my fingers crossed that freeforestify will improve his shading to look more clear and confident and it will be an awesome portrait. And even if it is supposed to be a goblin, the rib cage was previously distorted no matter if it was a goblin or an orc (just look at this goblin reference, the same comments still apply, except the chest musculature being well done (= exaggerated for a goblin), and the head should be even larger). Or is it meant to be more like the orc archer line?

[UnwiseOwl]

It's just the general blacks of the palette (and the spikiness) that make me think that this is some kind of dark adepty orc, more than anything. Don't get me wrong, this is an excellent piece of artwork, but to me the dark colours don't fit with the showy flamboyance of gladiators that we're looking for in the faction. The musculature and body type are much better, this guy definitely looks like a powerful orc. Sadly just not like a gladiator
As to the specifics of the types of orcei, perhaps that's a question better left to Temuchin.

[lipk]

It's just the general blacks of the palette (and the spikiness) that make me think that this is some kind of dark adepty orc, more than anything.

Well, it's a sketch or what I'm pretty sure that those aren't meant to be the final colors.