Balance changes for 1.18

[Skyend]

For me only lv1 and advancement changes matters therefore only those will be discussed.

Before I go over Hejnewars changes there some things to mention:

1. Default Era is almost balanced -> to balance it more, do only small adjustments balancing bad match-ups with in respect to their good match-ups
2. the difficulty of collecting xp differs depends on the units proper: use, attack order, and ctk

• Horseman: with the fear of retail it's often used for the final blow

• Guardsman: resi units collect xp by surviving many attacks you put them in a village and your opponent is forced to attack or to ignore them/that village

• Ghoul: it's a shield that shouldn't always attack, also you rather poison units than to go for the kill

• Mages: with their magical attack they have a high ctk, for attack order they are used first, however they still kill wounded units by theirself

4. don't mess with the main fast advancing + lv2 and main melee units

5. advancements with multiple options: you don't need to change advancements that differs a lot in purpose

6. All xp values are in 100% that's used in singe player campaigns, but for mp it's only 70%

7. listen to Krogen


Drakes:
Match-up: have an adventage over all fractions especially Loyalists, but not Northerners
Key advancements: Augur, Skir(Loy), Glider(UD), + any intel unit

Soothsayer is the healer and Oracle the dd -> no reason to change: +1 melee strike and +1 mp is random anyway
With respect to Loy beeing a good match-up it's not helpful to buff Ambusher (that unit is already a hell)
With respect to Gilder swarming UD a samll xp adjustment is fine

Fighter+lv2 (Warrior), Clasher are fine


Dunefolk: I don't care, they suck and every buff is welcome


Knalgan:
Match-up: + UD, - No
Key advancements: Thief, Poacher

Thief, Poacher, Pad isn't changed for 70%
Fighter, Thunder, Guardsman: I agree on to buff them, but guardsman still should require more xp (I neither want to see that unit leveling up after 1 kill, nor beeing to scared about attacking into it after it got 1 kill)
Gryphon Rider: 23 gold is reasonable, but the xp shouldn't be changed that much 42 seems reasonable (42: 29/24) 100%/70%/70%+intel

Trapper: +3 maybe+ 4 hp is ok, but the meele change is insane
Stalwart: fine as long as Guardsman isn't that free of a level up


Loyalists:
Match-up: + KA, -Dr

Horseman: 24 gold is reasonable, to increase xp is also fine, bu a change of 10 is to much
Merman: hm it's 1 hp, but not sure
Bowman: also a good idea, but 32 xp is critical low, better 35xp to have a real change to get it before leveling after 2 kills and + 1 melee

Javelineer: It's the only ranged advancement, to buff Pikeman or nerf Swordman would make more sense, at that point you can remove Pikeman from the game


Northerners:
Match-up: + Dr, - UD
Key advancements: Wolf Rider, Archer, Troll Welp(UD)

Bro Noooooooooo
Wolf Rider: No!!!
Crossbowman and Rocklobber can be slightly buffed but this is a No!!!


Rebels:
Match-up: + UD
Key advancements: Fighter, Archer, Shaman, intel Scout

Fighter: No!
Scout: 10xp change -> No! In compare it's not a good level up, but an rebels should have their intel scout that levels in about 2 kills (18xp)
Both shouldn't be changed at all.


Undead:
Match-up: + Loy, + No, - everything else
Key advancements: Bat, Corpse, Skeleton, Ghost

Ghoul: isn't a unit made to collect xp, also it's level up is trash -> good changes
Skeleton: as Krogen said DB is fragile and I love it to be able to level up into a mage (dd), but most xp goes into Bat, Corpse and Ghost

[Yomar]

Yes, core units are well balanced and should not to be changed too much, I agree.
Some of these small changes are nice, but as SkyEnd said trapper is getting too much meele boost.
Cav, are getting another nerf, and horseman will need more xp, Loys are not so fast and their fastest units get nerfed.
Cav kinda make up for their low def on terrain with resistances, but blade nerf will render them much more ineffective, especially when chasing fast units, like Wolves, Elvish Riders, quick Grunts or Griffins, the retaliation dammage will lead too an much easier dead on the other players turn.
Pikeman should not be removed, as SyEnd suggested (Idk if itt was a sarcastic comment), at lvl 3 this unit is awesome.

[Hejnewar]

Soothsayer is the healer and Oracle the dd -> no reason to change: +1 melee strike and +1 mp is random anyway

This is just a difference in concept between you and me. You think that unit having different role is enough and I dont.

Gryphon Rider: 23 gold is reasonable, but the xp shouldn't be changed that much 42 seems reasonable (42: 29/24) 100%/70%/70%+intel
Horseman: 24 gold is reasonable, to increase xp is also fine, bu a change of 10 is to much

Master gryphon is insane. In top 5 of L2 unit:

1. Knight
2. Lancer
3. Shadow
4. Mgryphon
5. Wraith

At 46 it is 32 / 26, it is not much different but at least you cant just go and snipe 3 kills. Horseman has even higher xp because Knight is at about 2,5 level not just 2 and ghost is special case.

Trapper: +3 maybe+ 4 hp is ok, but the meele change is insane

People dont realise how bad Trapper is. It is just drake burner thats slightly more tanky, with 2 more melee damage at the cost of 2x the upkeep. Poacher spam doesnt work, will it work with this change? It still wont, it might ba a lil bit better but thats about it.

Stalwart: fine as long as Guardsman isn't that free of a level up

I can double check that.

Bowman: also a good idea, but 32 xp is critical low, better 35xp to have a real change to get it before leveling after 2 kills and + 1 melee

Ye that can be done.

Bro Noooooooooo
Wolf Rider: No!!!

Crossbowman and Rocklobber can be slightly buffed but this is a No!!!

I can go on a compromise, get wolf xp a lil bit lower like 34, get archer xp lil bit higher like 32 and even change the nature of lobber buff if people dont like it to be more hp centric for example.

Fighter: No!

Best I can do is +1 xp.

Scout: 10xp change -> No! In compare it's not a good level up, but an rebels should have their intel scout that levels in about 2 kills (18xp)
Both shouldn't be changed at all.

At the same time even before Rider buff (lore reasons), scout was quiet a bit under xpd and if evles need to have that or should have that, that basically means to me that without it they are underpowered. Well they got a buff to other units.

[Skyend]

You need units that level up fast, and it's fine for their level up to not be that strong comparing to others.
Trapper isn't a great leader, but I wouldn't call it a bad unit.
The power of advancement isn't to bee underestimated.Replacing a unit that can be almost dead with something better or having an immortal shield.

I'll prefer a worse level 2 over increasing the xp of it's level 1 form!

There is no need to buff ranged forms of a level 2 unit, Orcish Crossbowman already does what it's there for (on dawn/dusk it kills Ghost with 2/2 or 2/2 skeleton with 1 strong Troll hit). Same for Troll Rocklobber and Javelineer.

By increasing Orcish Crossbowmans power you'll erase Drakes already bad chances to win once that unit is advanced into.
(Drakes lost 2 units: Northerners got an op unit)

The required xp, of Orcish Archer and Wolf Rider shouldn't be increased, to manage your experience or is a respectable skill. If you think that their level 2 are unjustifiable op considering the xp requirement, then please rather nerf them with respect to their "fair" usage (example mention above).

[Hejnewar]

The power of advancement isn't to bee underestimated.Replacing a unit that can be almost dead with something better or having an immortal shield.

Honestly at this point Im inclined to remove the full heal after leveling up since that seems to be the biggest problem with level ups.

By increasing Orcish Crossbowmans power you'll erase Drakes already bad chances to win once that unit is advanced into.

Thats easy to change in like half of the scenarios beacuse they all depend on fire damage.

The required xp, of Orcish Archer and Wolf Rider shouldn't be increased, to manage your experience or is a respectable skill.

Well the slightly higher xp actually allows you to show your skill more rather than getting immortal unit after 2 kills in these cases. You actually have something to manage.

Eh... I guess I will have to mentally prepare for next version when I hope new lvlups will be introduced as well as I hope elves will get their own mage. Rebelious times!

[Skyend]

Nothing left to say beside from, please not.

Honestly at this point Im inclined to remove the full heal after leveling up since that seems to be the biggest problem with level ups.

[Hejnewar]

Yeah, I wont, thats just me kidding. I could do it as an experiment in a custom era but it is not something for mainline.

[Skyend]

At least don't take your changes for good. And hopefully it does not need to take 2 years for them to be fixed after they are implemented (1.18)...
Maybe 1 month test phase or something.

It's also considerable to have a different era for mp and sp.

Not sure what your goal is with some of those changes.

[Spixi]

What about the proposed Saurian upgrades
Level 3 Skirmisher
Level 3 Augur

Also the addition of the Great Ogre (which is only relevant for Hornshark Island and Age of Heroes)?
Great Ogre

I have no problem to add them. The addition of the Nightblade to Northerners in 1.17 had no big impact and it seems fair to give Saurians that small buff and make the least popular AoH Loyalists unit more usable.

[Hejnewar]

Saurians should be added in the next pach all 4 of them hopefully.

Great Ogre I actually dont know much about.

[Spixi]

Knalgan is currently the only faction without split level 2 advancements. (Their only split advancement is level 3 of the Poacher line.) With the XP requirement reduction of Dwarvish Guardsman I think, there would be space for a split advancement. One more bulky melee-focussed branch (the current Stalwart) and one mixed, but less bulky branch (similar to Javelineer or Troll Rocklobber). The current advancement from a 9-1 ranged to a 11-2 ranged attack (Stalwart to Sentinel) is very odd. That one could be nerfed, as soon the second unit branch is introduced.

The new branch would increase the flexibility for Knalgan to deal with troops when protecting villages far away from the leader. Whey your opponent comes with more melee-based units, you can go for Stalwart, but when they come with ranged units, you can use the mixed unit instead.

Also, speaking about Knalgan split units. Will the Runesmith line ever get a chance in multiplayer? In comparison to the Steelclad it loses some of its HP (but gets a tiny bonus in blade resistance) and the blade attack, but gets a magical attack, which makes it better against units with high defenses like Elves in forests (except Wose, maybe an additional weaker arcane attack, e. g. 7-3 melee-arcane (non-magical), which replaces Fighter’s blade with an arcane blade (5 hits can kill a Wose and that attack has even the potential to kill a Ghost) could help here and also put Runesmith’s cost nearer to Steelclad’s). Enabling Arcanister by default would also help to make that unit a little more favorable, because Steelclad is often the better choice.

[Yuzir]

Really ?
Is this a mistake ?
Trapper gets 49Hp and 5x4 damage ?
He will be way op in this way.
Not only he has more average defence than other archers (60% in forests and 50% in swamps) he will also do the same damage as a Elvish Fighter during neutral time and even more at night, also if strong he will do the same damage as the fighter during daytime !
Actually at night he will do more damage than almost any lvl1 melee unit and if strong even during Dawn and Dusk.
Even without strong trait, at Night he will do more blade damage than the other lvl2 units, like Orcish (at night) crossbowman, Longbowman (at day), Ranger, Thunderguard, and has more Hp (apart Longbowman that does less melee (even during neutral and even if strong) and has less defence).
If strong he does at day same close range damage as an Elven Fighter.
Right now he does the same amount as his lvl3 (Hunter) counterpart.
He can even go Wose hunting with that kind of blade damage.
How do you deal with an unit that does so much retaliation damage to any attack, and it's also hard to hit on the right terrain ?
Plus on top of all that now he's even easier to lvlup from Poacher.
I highly suggest to lower his stats a bit because the actual changes would make other Dwarven units redundant and unbalance the game.
So I humbly advise to address this unit.
Thanks for the attention.

[Hejnewar]

Also, speaking about Knalgan split units. Will the Runesmith line ever get a chance in multiplayer?

I highly doubt that. But overall some more alt paths would be good there is just no art for them.

Not only he has more average defence than other archers (60% in forests and 50% in swamps) he will also do the same damage as a Elvish Fighter during neutral time and even more at night, also if strong he will do the same damage as the fighter during daytime !

Yeah compering level 2 unit with level 1 kinda shows that the uniit isnt op.

Even without strong trait, at Night he will do more blade damage than the other lvl2 units, like Orcish (at night) crossbowman, Longbowman (at day), Ranger, Thunderguard, and has more Hp (apart Longbowman that does less melee (even during neutral and even if strong) and has less defence).

Yes this shows that this unit is different from them but not that it is op. You didnt at all mention how much stronger in other aspects they are from Traper, so your argument here seems very one sided. Well maybe because every single one of the is better at actually shooting stuff.

How do you deal with an unit that does so much retaliation damage to any attack, and it's also hard to hit on the right terrain ?

Ummm you wait for the day? As you mentioned it is as good as figher is in melee and I guess you dont have any problem with dealing with figher using melee uniits (which is very common btw) and it is even easier to deal with than a figher because it is chaotic and deals less damage during day.

I highly suggest to lower his stats a bit because the actual changes would make other Dwarven units redundant and unbalance the game.

No. The hp yeah it is just a buff to a unit that was as strong as drake burner (and now isnt much much better anyway [additional upkkep cost]) but the melee change comes into effect really only vs orcs (because every other faction can just wait for the day and deal with weaker fighter with 49 hp or is undead). It doesnt even help with traper / poacher spam anyway because it doesnt help with their biggest problem, which is inability to break thru, it only improves their defensive capability, not offensive one. This wont make HODOR work by itself.

[Yuzir]

"Ummm you wait for the day? As you mentioned it is as good as figher is in melee and I guess you dont have any problem with dealing with figher using melee uniits (which is very common btw) and it is even easier to deal with than a figher because it is chaotic and deals less damage during day."

I can attack fighter with ranged, and even if I wait for day, I may will need to deal with an unit that does more damage as a neutral unit.
I even tried to play some games, and manage to win by just spamming this unit.
Also hodor became more effective, because Poacher is easier to upgrade now.


How you wait day, if the player will attack at night ?

Knagla is actually one of my favourite factions, (especially the hodor units), but with these changes I rarely recruit Thunderer unless there are a lot of mountains, why should I ?
It's less effective, costs more and it's harder to lvlup.
Now lv 2 poacher is just too good to try to lvlup Thunderer instead.
And when I play HeroAge Thunderguard became almost useless.


I didn't wrote this wuthout trying, I played with my friends, and the changes were evident.
Also I was following this thread, and it seems that I'm not the only one thinking like this.

But probably, these are one sided decisions, and players suggestions are not considered.
This is sad, I thought that this game was a comunity project, a game made for players.
Evidently, I was wrong.
This is only for posting changes that wohever is in charge, likes to do.
I am aware that this unit was bad, but this is not a good reason to op it, changes should be gradual and not multiple buff at once, to evaluate the impact on the game.
I was a gametester once, and this was the attitude of the game deveopers on that particular project.
I like this game, and I apreciate what the contributors made for it, this is the reason why I wrote this, I don't agree on everything, there are other changes that are not ideal in my opinion, but they are small enough to be tried out, but this one in particular, well I deemed it excessive.
Anyway, good luck for everything and thanks for at least sharing your point of view.

[Hejnewar]

Also hodor became more effective, because Poacher is easier to upgrade now.

It didnt, at least not on 1v1 or 2v2 or generally PvP maps where xp modifier is 70%, it didnt change by even 1 xp. Maybe you played PvP somewhere else but then that is not competetive environoment and kinda shows lack in research.

How you wait day, if the player will attack at night ?

Yes with the least offensive lvl 2 archer in game that is more or less drake burner on offense.

It's less effective, costs more and it's harder to lvlup.
Now lv 2 poacher is just too good to try to lvlup Thunderer instead.

I love how thunder buff was completely overlooked here.

Also I was following this thread, and it seems that I'm not the only one thinking like this.

But probably, these are one sided decisions, and players suggestions are not considered.
This is sad, I thought that this game was a comunity project, a game made for players.
Evidently, I was wrong.
This is only for posting changes that wohever is in charge, likes to do.

If you were trully following this thread you would realise how many changes were made because of community, but because I dont agree with your opinion you say that my decisions are one sided and that this game is no longer community project. Well you can try doing balance by including everything everyone says that it surely will be for players right? And it surely will be way better. Unfortunatley for community I have my own opinions and thoughts.

I am aware that this unit was bad, but this is not a good reason to op it, changes should be gradual and not multiple buff at once, to evaluate the impact on the game.

You are saying that you managed to evaluate the impact of this change on the game already and now you are saying that changes should be smaller to evaluate them. But... If you managed to evaluate them already how do you know that I didnt do the same?