Thunderers vs Scouts
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- revolting_peasant
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Thunderers vs Scouts
I am playing a Dwarf faction in a campaign. I'm scratching my head wondering if I should "invest" in Thunderers at all.
For an inexperienced Knalgan such as myself, they are of limited use:
* Maximum variance in their attack damage - just 1 shot.
* Pierce damage type - not useful unless I'm fighting Drakes (which basically never happens) or wild beasts (which do appear occasionally, but those are never the stronger enemies). It's not even Fire damage, damn it!
* Ok ranged damage if they hit, low-ish melee damage.
* Same resistance and movement as most dwarves.
And I suppose that, in pairs, their damage variance evens out. But - what would I use such a unit for?
* Guard duty? Guardsman is much better in taking hits. It won't kill the attacker, but then - I can't count on the Thunderer for that either.
* Damage-dealing? Only as a gamble, and I'll need to have a "plan B" anyway - so might as well invest in that plan B to begin with.
* Reconnaissance or patrol? They're as slow as the Fighters.
If I had no alternative whatsoever for a ranged attacker, I would have no choice but to use them. But... there are the Scouts! Slightly less resistance, but they have a more consistent ranged damage (much more consistent in L2 and up), 20% more mobile, and a little less XP. And to top it off: Much better and better melee damage than Thunderers in L1 and L2 respectively; and they require a lot less XP to level: 30 vs 40, 60 vs 95.
So, why would I want Thunderguards in my army? Convince me I'm wrong!
For an inexperienced Knalgan such as myself, they are of limited use:
* Maximum variance in their attack damage - just 1 shot.
* Pierce damage type - not useful unless I'm fighting Drakes (which basically never happens) or wild beasts (which do appear occasionally, but those are never the stronger enemies). It's not even Fire damage, damn it!
* Ok ranged damage if they hit, low-ish melee damage.
* Same resistance and movement as most dwarves.
And I suppose that, in pairs, their damage variance evens out. But - what would I use such a unit for?
* Guard duty? Guardsman is much better in taking hits. It won't kill the attacker, but then - I can't count on the Thunderer for that either.
* Damage-dealing? Only as a gamble, and I'll need to have a "plan B" anyway - so might as well invest in that plan B to begin with.
* Reconnaissance or patrol? They're as slow as the Fighters.
If I had no alternative whatsoever for a ranged attacker, I would have no choice but to use them. But... there are the Scouts! Slightly less resistance, but they have a more consistent ranged damage (much more consistent in L2 and up), 20% more mobile, and a little less XP. And to top it off: Much better and better melee damage than Thunderers in L1 and L2 respectively; and they require a lot less XP to level: 30 vs 40, 60 vs 95.
So, why would I want Thunderguards in my army? Convince me I'm wrong!
Last edited by revolting_peasant on June 7th, 2022, 8:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.
- Lord-Knightmare
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
I assume you're asking for the campaign-wise tactic? If so,revolting_peasant wrote: ↑June 6th, 2022, 8:16 pm I am playing a Dwarf faction in a campaign. I'm scratching my head wondering if I should "invest" in Thunderers at all.
For an inexperienced Knalgan such as myself, they are of limited use:
* Maximum variance in their attack damage - just 1 shot.
* Pierce damage type - not useful unless I'm fighting Drakes (which basically never happens) or wild beasts (which do appear occasionally, but those are never the stronger enemies). It's not even Fire damage, damn it!
* Ok ranged damage if they hit, low-ish melee damage.
* Same resistance and movement as most dwarves.
And I suppose that, in pairs, their damage variance evens out. But - what would I use such a unit for?
* Guard duty? Guardsman is much better in taking hits. It won't kill the attacker, but then - I can't count on the thunderer for that either.
* Damage-dealing? Only as a gamble, and I'll have to have a "plan B" anyway - so might as well invest in that plan B to begin with.
* Reconnaisance or patrol? They're as slow as the fighters.
If I had no alternative whatsoever for a ranged attacker, I would have no choice but to use them. But... there are the Scouts! Slightly less resistance, but they have a more consistent ranged damage (much more consistent in L2 and up), 20% more mobile, and a little less XP. And to top it off: Much better and better melee damage than Thunderers in L1 and L2 respectively; and they require a lot less XP to level: 30 vs 40, 60 vs 95.
So, why would I want Thunderguards in my army? Convince me I'm wrong!
Keep 1-2 thunderers and focus more on Dwarven Scouts. Scouts are more reliable to some people who have bad luck in RNG. If it's Knalgan Alliance campaign, then Poacher should also be an option so you may invest XP for a Huntsman and/or Ranger as well.
Having 1-2 Dragonguards should suffice but if you clearly want to avoid them, then going all in on Dwarven Scouts is very feasible as well.
My THoT playthrough has mostly Dwarven Lords (10+), Dwarven Explorers (7-8), some Sentinels (2-3) and 2 Dragonguards, so you can see that I did not invest a lot in Dragonguards but cleared the campaign anyways.
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
That's actually how it was before Wesnoth 1.8 (when the scout was added):revolting_peasant wrote: ↑June 6th, 2022, 8:16 pm If I had no alternative whatsoever for a ranged attacker, I would have no choice but to use them.
https://units.wesnoth.org/1.6/C/mainline.html#Dwarves
https://units.wesnoth.org/1.8/C/mainline.html#Dwarves
I think the thunderer is kind of an historical relic from the time when scouts were not available - nowadays the scout is almost always more useful.
- revolting_peasant
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
@gnombat: You write "almost always". When do you find Thunderers useful?
@Lord-Knightmare: In the campaign strategy you describe, you still invest in ranking up two Dragonguards. So, same question: What do you use them for?
@Lord-Knightmare: In the campaign strategy you describe, you still invest in ranking up two Dragonguards. So, same question: What do you use them for?
- Lord-Knightmare
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
I like to keep at least 2 of unit type's final advancement in my recall list. You can say...I am a collector of sorts.In the campaign strategy you describe, you still invest in ranking up two Dragonguards. So, same question: What do you use them for?
Also, my only use for Dragonguards is when there are enemy units on very poor defense. Such as a troll on shallow water. High chance of not-missing.
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
Not often ... as you mentioned above, sometimes a ranged pierce attack is useful, so it may be wise to recruit some just in case. But usually with thunderers you'll just end up wishing you had more scouts instead.revolting_peasant wrote: ↑June 7th, 2022, 8:50 pm @gnombat: You write "almost always". When do you find Thunderers useful?
- revolting_peasant
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
A scout is ok in that situation too - and more likely to make it to the stranded troll with the extra movement pointLord-Knightmare wrote: ↑June 7th, 2022, 9:17 pm my only use for Dragonguards is when there are enemy units on very poor defense. Such as a troll on shallow water. High chance of not-missing.
Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
Then doesn't it mean that a balance pass is in order ?gnombat wrote: ↑June 7th, 2022, 3:35 am That's actually how it was before Wesnoth 1.8 (when the scout was added):
https://units.wesnoth.org/1.6/C/mainline.html#Dwarves
https://units.wesnoth.org/1.8/C/mainline.html#Dwarves
I think the thunderer is kind of an historical relic from the time when scouts were not available - nowadays the scout is almost always more useful.
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
Open an issue ticket at the Wesnoth Repo on Github. Forum posts like these are more likely to be seen and forgotten whereas Github issue tickets will be addressed (much sooner too).Then doesn't it mean that a balance pass is in order ?
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- iridium137
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Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
Balance is mostly for multiplayer, but Dwarvish Scout isn't a unit that you can get in the mainline factions. It doesn't really matter if a campaign-only unit is "unbalanced".
Re: Thunderers vs Scouts
Oh, I never had a chance to play multiplayer, so I didn't know that. Thanks for the information, yes you're right, the unbalance is less a problem then (especially since it's the campaign developer's choice to allow recruitment of scouts or not, and when).iridium137 wrote: ↑March 30th, 2023, 3:29 am Balance is mostly for multiplayer, but Dwarvish Scout isn't a unit that you can get in the mainline factions. It doesn't really matter if a campaign-only unit is "unbalanced".