Saurians towards necromancy

[holypaladin]

As lately saurians are often mentioned race on forum I wanna start new topic on this case too. In Secrets of Ancients Ardyn-na says saurians were hostile to Vendraxis's ideas of promoting necromancy among saurians. But looking on line of saurian augur we may go to conclusion their actions are straightforvard that's what other races would call dark/forbidden magic. Was saurians really so much against necromancy if had so much cultists in society?

[DuncanDill]

For me, there are 3-ish forms of magic that seem to be evident across wesnoth:

Crystal magic: This is the most powerful of the three, but it has to be stored within a magical object, most often a gem (though other objects work too). It can take many forms such as the power to summon fire, lightning or heal. This is most often used by the humans, who have not got much true magic.

Necromancy magic: This is a dark for of magic, used to summon the dead. Not much to say about this, apart from that it is frowned upon by pretty much everybody.

True magic: This is the raw power of magic, with no form yet. It is usually just a blast of raw energy. This is used by elves, orcs and saurians.

Although some exceptions to using only one of these types of magic exists, they all rather frown upon each other. So that kind of explains why saurians don't like necromancy, just to the nature of it.

Keep in mind this is all personal headcanon.

[Duke_Anax]

As far as I can tell Saurian magic is occult, like witchcraft and voodoo. While outsiders often see it all as dark and wicked, its core concerns deal with the strange and supernatural of any flavor. Communication with the dead is part of that practice and some of the darker branches would see necromancy as an obvious step, but many others would see it as a step too far.

[holypaladin]

As far as I can tell Saurian magic is occult, like witchcraft and voodoo. While outsiders often see it all as dark and wicked, its core concerns deal with the strange and supernatural of any flavor. Communication with the dead is part of that practice and some of the darker branches would see necromancy as an obvious step, but many others would see it as a step too far.

Yeah, that's exactly what I was about to say. It differs from magic used by elves (as part of their nature), humans (some kind of study, not mentioning necromancy beacuse that's other thing, for me similiar as saurian's magic), orcs and trolls (simple wisdom among others) or dwarves (runes). Saurian magic is rather dark and occult and it really don't suprise me why Vendraxis joined Ardonna beacuse for me saurian augurs has much common with what necromancers do.

Saurians have some knowledge of what men call sorcery, but their practice of it reeks of augury and black magic.

Certain saurians are seen dressed in arcane regalia and covered head to toe in horrifying, esoteric shapes and markings, both with paint and tattoo. Some suspect them to be visionaries, or oracles amongst their ilk. But whatever ‘societal’ function they may have, they are undeniably powerful in the strange magics their kind possess, and are beings to be wary of if ever seen.

While indeed it may be too far for some saurians to become open necromancers (while still they use spiritism to know furture) I find it weird that Secrets of Ancients says Vendraxis's teachings wasn't commonly accepted in saurian society. I would even say that if describtion of undead says elves and dwarves seen undead before Jevyan came I can say it would may come (not only propably) from saurian necromancers.

[ChrundleTheGreat]

For me, there are 3-ish forms of magic that seem to be evident across wesnoth:

Crystal magic: This is the most powerful of the three, but it has to be stored within a magical object, most often a gem (though other objects work too). It can take many forms such as the power to summon fire, lightning or heal. This is most often used by the humans, who have not got much true magic.

Necromancy magic: This is a dark for of magic, used to summon the dead. Not much to say about this, apart from that it is frowned upon by pretty much everybody.

True magic: This is the raw power of magic, with no form yet. It is usually just a blast of raw energy. This is used by elves, orcs and saurians.

Although some exceptions to using only one of these types of magic exists, they all rather frown upon each other. So that kind of explains why saurians don't like necromancy, just to the nature of it.

Keep in mind this is all personal headcanon.

heh, in my own headcanon the saurians are invoking the magic of an ancient dark entity from a previous universe, thats why if i remember correctly their magic is all about curses, wich from my background fells very connected with demons...
i believe they dont like necromancy because they have been "warned" from its dire consequenses.
i do find this topic very interesting...
i wasnt accounting for humans mostly taking their power from crystals, i always thought of them as having an unawakend potential/proclivity to magic, as if this particular universe had a dormant capacity for all beings to do magic, would you say that many of this cristals/objects are simply charged by true magic?
also, what are some instances of exeptions that you've found?

(this last bit is edited)
to be clear i believe that great "magical" entities have lived, fought and died, or at least their universes have, and they linger on with great power outside the material domain, influencing it.

[DuncanDill]

For me, there are 3-ish forms of magic that seem to be evident across wesnoth:

Crystal magic: This is the most powerful of the three, but it has to be stored within a magical object, most often a gem (though other objects work too). It can take many forms such as the power to summon fire, lightning or heal. This is most often used by the humans, who have not got much true magic.

Necromancy magic: This is a dark for of magic, used to summon the dead. Not much to say about this, apart from that it is frowned upon by pretty much everybody.

True magic: This is the raw power of magic, with no form yet. It is usually just a blast of raw energy. This is used by elves, orcs and saurians.

Although some exceptions to using only one of these types of magic exists, they all rather frown upon each other. So that kind of explains why saurians don't like necromancy, just to the nature of it.

Keep in mind this is all personal headcanon.

heh, in my own headcanon the saurians are invoking the magic of an ancient dark entity from a previous universe, thats why if i remember correctly their magic is all about curses, wich from my background fells very connected with demons...
i believe they dont like necromancy because they have been "warned" from its dire consequenses.
i do find this topic very interesting...
i wasnt accounting for humans mostly taking their power from crystals, i always thought of them as having an unawakend potential/proclivity to magic, as if this particular universe had a dormant capacity for all beings to do magic, would you say that many of this cristals/objects are simply charged by true magic?
also, what are some instances of exeptions that you've found?


(this last bit is edited)
to be clear i believe that great "magical" entities have lived, fought and died, or at least their universes have, and they linger on with great power outside the material domain, influencing it.

Yup, crystals are just full of true magic, the first evident being the one in the scepter of fire. This is why konrad, li'sar and haldric were all able to use it. As for exceptions, there are very few. The first place you would look would be the dwarves who use runes. But if you look closely enough, they fill these with crystal dust afterwards. Morimeru (or what ever his name is) from HttT stores a gem in his sword ruling him out. And recently, delfador was ruled out....

Or was he? Gems are things just full of pure true magic. The same holds for delf's staff that he found, that automatically gave him the ability to cast lightening. So he just has the gem to "direct" the magic

[ChrundleTheGreat]

Yup, crystals are just full of true magic, the first evident being the one in the scepter of fire. This is why konrad, li'sar and haldric were all able to use it. As for exceptions, there are very few. The first place you would look would be the dwarves who use runes. But if you look closely enough, they fill these with crystal dust afterwards. Morimeru (or what ever his name is) from HttT stores a gem in his sword ruling him out. And recently, delfador was ruled out....

Or was he? Gems are things just full of pure true magic. The same holds for delf's staff that he found, that automatically gave him the ability to cast lightening. So he just has the gem to "direct" the magic

So im working on a ttrpg project based off of wesnoth, and a big aspect of it is magic, thats why im that much interested on it.
i don't if you (or anyone) would care but i actually have even been trying to come up with my own creation story/mith for the game, and i have my own theories on this topic too:
so there are many cultures in the land of wesnoth that have "shamans" among their roster, and i believe there are many entities in other "dimensions" for lack of a better word, who influence iridia in many ways, they are the "spirits" sort of speak, that the shamans can interact with.
in my head (bit of a long story, but...)there is the "material world" (how the would think of all of space) and "outside" of it, or simply else"where", there is an eternal pathway of "light" that leads to impending death (im glad you mentioned delfadors staff, when he gets it he engages with a sort of guardian who tells delfador something like "protect the light" or "fight for the light" or something, the point its that i believe this guardian speaks of the light that follows the path) many try to not follow the path of light and that is what necromancy is, going against the natural flow of light and life(which the guardian of the staff says that they're connected), imho necromancy its not too different from other branches of magic, you use power to re-shape reality, so its also crystal magic, assuming its cast with a crystal infused wand/staff(like necromances seem to have).
according to me all magic comes from the spiritual domain, i guess all crystalline structures harbor the capacity to channel magic and some absorb the essence of some spirits like the gem of the scepter of fire presumably did, also humans probably need to utilize the gems to bind them to their own spirit in order to tap into their natural magical capacity, the alternative is to connect directly with a spirit (like elves, or trolls or saurians) and use that connection to invoke a change in reality... i like it adding the extra step of crystals makes sense ...
dwarvish runes are still unclear to me, what can they do and how???

[fishrose]

I am creating a saurian campaign that touches on this.

For me, the society formed by a species should be informed by its biological roots. For saurians, we know that:

* they are reptiles
* they live in swamps
* they are nocturnal

It seems safe to assume that saurians are carnivorous, and that they both hunt and scavenge for their food. Being creatures of the swamp, they are familiar with decay; they likely have very powerful digestive and immune systems that permit them to consume rotten things. This gives them a different primordial relationship with death, and the society they build will reflect this alien perspective.

Living in swamps would give saurians ready access to bones. Like certain ancient civilizations in our world, augurs and shamans would make use of these bones; this creates a necessary connection between death and augury without specifically focusing on death. For example, this is a piece of bone used in pyromancy in real life:
.

The ritualistic use of these bones is not associated with "death magic" in any way; they just happen to be convenient vehicles for the intended purpose. But from an outsider's perspective, the act of harvesting corpses, carving enigmatic symbols onto their bones and casting them into fire while performing ritualistic dancing would certainly look a lot like "death magic".

Saurians are nocturnal and cold-blooded reptiles; both darkness and coldness are perceived as death-related. This makes it even easier for an uninformed or under-informed outsider to make the association between saurian augury and "death magic".

[holypaladin]

Maybe not very canonical informations but some add-ons (like A Song of Fire, A Song of the Winds) associate saurians close to necromancy and reanimating corpses. In Aria of the Dragon Slayer there's even saurian ancient lich.

[DuncanDill]

Welp, saurians still don't do necromancy, they do occult magic. It may look similar but it's very different.