Add [chapter] to [campaign]-tag

[Pentarctagon]

For what little it's worth, I have no particular opinion either way. The main selling point for me would be to better facilitate the single scenario pack(s).

The concern of the feature causing authors to go berserk and make so much content that the game runs out of memory seems rather theoretical. The only scenario in which that seems like it could happen is if people start making "campaign packs" which mindlessly lump lots of other peoples' campaigns together (imagine a "Best Wesnoth campaigns!!!" pack that includes 10 of the biggest and flashiest ones). But is that really a concern at all? People could do that already, but don't, and if they did such an add-ons can always be taken down.

Dugi's Legend of the Invincibles is probably the closest anyone has ever gotten. IIRC he's posted a few times about needing to get creative about reducing memory usage.

[ForestDragon]

For what little it's worth, I have no particular opinion either way. The main selling point for me would be to better facilitate the single scenario pack(s).

The concern of the feature causing authors to go berserk and make so much content that the game runs out of memory seems rather theoretical. The only scenario in which that seems like it could happen is if people start making "campaign packs" which mindlessly lump lots of other peoples' campaigns together (imagine a "Best Wesnoth campaigns!!!" pack that includes 10 of the biggest and flashiest ones). But is that really a concern at all? People could do that already, but don't, and if they did such an add-ons can always be taken down.

i agree on that. plus, making a huge campaign isn't as easy as the 'campaign authors going berserk with content' makes you feel. for example, i used to maintain a small RPG campaign, i only made 5 scenarios, but still, that took a lot of time. gigantic campaign like Loti or Trinity have been developed for years, seeing more than one stable release. I think it's more about helping existing huge campaigns, rather than encourage creating new huge ones.

[GunChleoc]

Would it technically possible to only load 1 chapter, and then have some form of data transferal to the following chapters where appropriate, when a previous chapter has been finished? This way, we would actually reduce memory usage rather than add to it.

[ForestDragon]

Would it technically possible to only load 1 chapter, and then have some form of data transferal to the following chapters where appropriate, when a previous chapter has been finished? This way, we would actually reduce memory usage rather than add to it.

that's actually a pretty good idea

[doofus-01]

Would it technically possible to only load 1 chapter, and then have some form of data transferal to the following chapters where appropriate, when a previous chapter has been finished? This way, we would actually reduce memory usage rather than add to it.

Of course, it's been possible for years. See https://wiki.wesnoth.org/PersistenceWML .

But pay it, you will

Right, well, I'll just ask that you don't break the system as it currently works. Thanks.

[Tad_Carlucci]

There does not appear to be any means to only load one scenario from a campaign and then load the next when it's needed. It appears all the scenario are loaded when the campaign is selected.

The persistence WML does not appear to provide the sort of data persistence which would be needed in support of this. It appears too far-reaching and intended more for saving the state of a game-engine extension than for use within a campaign. It could be used inside a campaign, but it would require some sort of central naming authority to ensure that one campaigns saved state namespace does not collide with another's.

[Ravana]

Unintentionally it will not collide with another. Namespace there goes to file name.

[Whiskeyjack]

As someone who downloads a lot of UMC (sadly a lot more than I have time for), I always found it a pain to have two (or in some cases even more) campaign parts cluttering that overstretched campaign list (I think especially of IftU + AtS, which IIRC at some point resulted in 4 or 5 instances on that list and Bad Moon Rising, which held 3 entries for I don´t know how many iterations of Wesnoth developement). I also reckon that Dugi structured his campaign into two "parts" entry-wise because of the number of chapters (in-campaign all 10 still exist) filling up the list rather annoyingly.

Would it technically possible to only load 1 chapter, and then have some form of data transferal to the following chapters where appropriate, when a previous chapter has been finished? This way, we would actually reduce memory usage rather than add to it.

Of course, it's been possible for years. See https://wiki.wesnoth.org/PersistenceWML .

That does sound quite useful to me. I can testify from experience that at least LotI can already bloat heavily despite all of Dugis efforts.

Also, think of "complementary scenarios". Imagine the Rise of Wesnoth where at the end of the first scenario King Eldaric is left behind to fight the orcs.

With the current tempo of mainline developement this might never become relevant, but I think Kwandulins idea is also a very good usecase that was overlooked in the current discussion. It would for example also make it possible to add one or two Li'sar scenarios to HttT without forcing them into the current campaign as was discussed in some depth before the hiatus of Turuk´s HttT rework. Even more gain for UMC of course, where some people already have single scenarios as campaign complements floating around (I know of at least some for LotI though I´m not sure how far those are tied with the campaign story-wise).

[ForestDragon]

Also, think of "complementary scenarios". Imagine the Rise of Wesnoth where at the end of the first scenario King Eldaric is left behind to fight the orcs.

With the current tempo of mainline developement this might never become relevant, but I think Kwandulins idea is also a very good usecase that was overlooked in the current discussion. It would for example also make it possible to add one or two Li'sar scenarios to HttT without forcing them into the current campaign as was discussed in some depth before the hiatus of Turuk´s HttT rework. Even more gain for UMC of course, where some people already have single scenarios as campaign complements floating around (I know of at least some for LotI though I´m not sure how far those are tied with the campaign story-wise).

yeah we could call it 'Heir to the Throne DLC' or something but yeah, the potential of such a tag is notable indeed

[Celtic_Minstrel]

I think the general idea here is a very good one, and since the campaigns list (in 1.13) is already a tree view, it would be totally possible to list chapters in the main list, hidden from view behind a disclosure triangle (or something similar). I think Tad has some decent points, however; either those need to be addressed, or this has to be done in a way that doesn't force you to load the entire super-campaign when playing a specific chapter. A way to change campaign defines mid-campaign might be needed. (Since it's now possible to switch difficulties mid-campaign, maybe some of that functionality could be leveraged? Not sure.)

[Aldarisvet]

As someone who downloads a lot of UMC (sadly a lot more than I have time for), I always found it a pain to have two (or in some cases even more) campaign parts cluttering that overstretched campaign list (I think especially of IftU + AtS, which IIRC at some point resulted in 4 or 5 instances on that list and Bad Moon Rising, which held 3 entries for I don´t know how many iterations of Wesnoth developement). I also reckon that Dugi structured his campaign into two "parts" entry-wise because of the number of chapters (in-campaign all 10 still exist) filling up the list rather annoyingly.

Hi guys, today I want to speak exactly about the thing that is mentioned here and precisely formulated by Whiskeyjack.
This concerns UMC Pack Project, the vote for which we've just finished.
Well, there are 11 winners but in fact there would be 13 campaigns, not a small number, of 10 different authors, 10 campaigns + 3 sequels (given that Elvish Dinasty is a sequel for Ooze).

But it campaign menu it would not be 13 points. It would be MUCH more. Look.
Bad Moon Rising have 3 parts, so it tooks 3 items in the campains menu. Trinity has 2 parts. Invasion from the unknown has 2 parts, After the Storm has 3 parts. Legend of Invincibles have 2 parts. Grnk the Mighty has 2 parts.
That means there would be not 13 but 21 items in campaign menu. Really too much and confusing!

Guys, as was mentioned above, this practice in general displease users, I can say this for myself as user too. Moreover, this is disrespectful to other authors that do not split their campaigns because obviously by using this 'part system' you take more space and draw more attention. In particular case of the Pack, I think that this will create a negative reaction to the whole Pack from the player.

The is a simple way to let the player start any chapter without playing others. Just make a choice option in the first scenario of the campaign, so in case of a proper choice it would immediately ends the first scenario with victory and send the player to the place selected by the user in the campaign (to another part/chapter). I implemented this thing in my A Whim of Fate campaign a year ago (it have 2 chapters at the moment but same system can be used for 3 or more chapters).

So I really urge authors to implement this simple method. For sure, I also will try to comminicate with authors in PM about the matter.

[GunChleoc]

The problem with a selection scenario is memory usage, as has already been discussed in this thread. I expect that this would be even more problematic on a mobile device - do they come with 4GB of RAM?

So, I don't think that contacting the campaign authors right now will solve anything - something has to be programmed first.

[Aldarisvet]

The problem with a selection scenario is memory usage, as has already been discussed in this thread. I expect that this would be even more problematic on a mobile device - do they come with 4GB of RAM?

So, I don't think that contacting the campaign authors right now will solve anything - something has to be programmed first.

I see no problem at all in the way I suggest to solve the problem (better to say, the memory problem is irrelevant here, it is about an interface way to organize access to chapters/parts). Here is the code. The variable called "have_lady" is from TRoW and I just left it for fun.

Code: Select all

	[event]
		name=start

  	[message]
    		speaker=narrator
    		image=wesnoth-icon.png
    		caption=_"Note:"
    		message=_ "You can skip Chapter I and go stright to Chapter II if you played Chapter I before. Chapter II is fully independent, no unit characteristics are inherited from Chapter I."
    	[/message]
    	[message]
    		speaker=narrator
    		image=wesnoth-icon.png
    		caption=_ "Play Chapter I?"
    		# YES OPTION
    		[option]
    			message=_ "Play"
    		[command]
                    [set_variable]
                        name=have_lady
                        value=0
                    [/set_variable]
    		[/command]
    		[/option]


    		# NO OPTION
    		[option]
    			message=_ "Skip"
    		[command]
                    [set_variable]
                        name=have_lady
                        value=1
                    [/set_variable]
     		[/command]
    		[/option]
    	[/message]

	[if]
    	[variable]
    		name=have_lady
    		numerical_equals=1
    	[/variable]
    [then]
	    [endlevel]   
		result=victory
         	save=no
         	bonus=no
          	carryover_percentage=0
		next_scenario=04_Winged_Plains
	    [/endlevel]   
    [/then]
	[else]
...
here goes normal code for the first scenario

[Ravana]

Your 04_Winged_Plains will be in other #define, so WML does not have access to it from this #define.

[Aldarisvet]

Your 04_Winged_Plains will be in other #define, so WML does not have access to it from this #define.

And what does it mean? It works. I really see no difference between victory condition with second or fourth scenario.